Bronze or Iron?

[Al B]

On 8/16/2019 at 9:21 PM, Woodbutcherbynight said:

Maybe not this time, just wait...…… it's coming...…… I can feel it.

 

Yeah I wondered the same thing, thought maybe it was named after the cats or something.

The only dumb question is the one that isn't asked.

[Gerald]

6 hours ago, Kevin Beitz said:

Looking at all these pictures is confusing ...

Does the number of the plane indicate the length of the sole?  

You could say there is a relation for 1 thru 8 but after those even numbers all bets are off. I am not sure how they arrived at the numbers but you will find numbers with 1/2 added or a letter. Stanley may be the most straight forward for numbering but I do not know what the basis is.

[steven newman]

Millers Falls at least tried to make length of the sole the plane's number.....their #4 sized plane was called a No. 9....because it was 9" long.....just like my No. 11 Junior jack....11" long sole....all the way up to the #24......They never made a #1 sized plane.....the #2 was 8" long, but was called a No. 7......same length as the No. 8 (#3 size) plane. 

[PostalTom]

Well, I finally pulled the trigger and bought the LN #4 bronze bodied.  I haven't honed the blade and tried it out yet as I have another project in work, but I will reach a point where it will become useful, and I will post my experiences and opinion when I do.  I also bought the LN large router plane with the open throat.  I read their info regarding difference between the open throat and closed throat, and convinced myself that the open throat was what I wanted, but in the end, it was basically a toss of the coin.  Same as above, when I use it I will post on it too.

[John Morris]

1 hour ago, PostalTom said:

I haven't honed the blade and tried it out yet

Congratulations Tom! Hey, just a suggestion, before you touch that blade, give it a try first, my own experience with LN, is I can use the plane out of the box.

Nice router plane too!

And, a hearty welcome back to our forums sir, great to see you around, really nice indeed.

[PostalTom]

Thank you.  As for the blade, that is basically what LN said in the pamphlet they sent with the plane; ready to use out of the box, but a secondary bevel will improve performance.  I've never been enthusiastic about secondary or micro bevels, so I will probably do as you suggested.  If I remember right, you posted much the same thing at one time, preferring to stick with the primary bevel.

[derekcohen]

The primary bevel on LN bench planes is 25 degrees. This is too low for a BD bench plane. 30-33 degrees is the recommended bevel angle.

 

Further, I have never come across a blade that was sharpened enough from a manufacturer. Blades from Veritas are honed to 400 grit and considered sharp! Grind to 30 degrees and sharpen as high as you can go.

 

Regards from Perth

 

Derek

[John Morris]

1 hour ago, derekcohen said:

Further, I have never come across a blade that was sharpened enough from a manufacturer.

I have Derek. LN is one. As I stated. Not arguing with ya, just stating my experiences are different than yours. 

All the LN planes I received worked beautifully out of the box. I have not found a need to change the bevel either. But then, I'm not too wrapped up in sharpening, I sharpen by hand, no jigs or gadgets. So my bevels are not accurate, but I manage to turn regular wood surfaces into glassy surfaces. 

 

I have always felt that our craft has gotten waaaay too wrapped up in sharpening, the Zen, the purists, the gadgetry, the blade holding jigs etc. Perhaps my standards aren't the same as yours, and that's not a bad thing, it just is.

 

But ya, my message to Tom is, try the plane first! Whaddya got to lose? You may be pleasantly surprised. 

 

[John Morris]

Here is a fun little topic I installed using my alter ego. 🤔

I love Krenov's take on sharpening. 

 

[PostalTom]

I envy those who can achieve good results by hand sharpening.  When we are allowed out of our houses, I should probably visit a pawn shop and buy some old junk chisels to practice with, so that my chisels or plane irons will come out flat as they are supposed to be, instead of looking like the runner on a rocking chair.

[John Morris]

4 minutes ago, PostalTom said:

I envy those who can achieve good results by hand sharpening.  When we are allowed out of our houses, I should probably visit a pawn shop and buy some old junk chisels to practice with, so that my chisels or plane irons will come out flat as they are supposed to be, instead of looking like the runner on a rocking chair.

It's not that hard Tom. Firstly, we just need to do away with the idea that a chisel or iron has to be perfect, in order to cut perfect. 

Hey, who says the runner of a rocking chair isn't a good form for a plane iron? Some of us call that camber!😄

 

[PostalTom]

That sounds like a good approach.  I have always been a detail oriented perfectionist, and that is a hard habit to break.  So far, my attempts at "unplugging" my shop have resulted in equal parts of frustration and surprisingly satisfying progress.  

[derekcohen]

John, I avoid sharpening threads because everyone has an opinion, and the threads generally disintegrate as posters become defensive about their position. It is amazing how competitive some are (should I be surprised - my day job is a shrink). I am also at a loss to say much about various sharpening stones when asked (I get asked a lot) because I do not experiment. At the same time, I do pay attention to sharpening because it is at the heart of woodworking. 

 

It does not take long to achieve sharp edges when you have a system that works. I never make comments about the systems of others. It is not for me to say whether they are right or wrong - there cannot be anything wrong if it works for you. I can only say what works for me, and if that helps another, well then I am happy to have done so. 

 

I have two pieces of advice in discussions like this: seek to develop a sharpening approach that suits the tool, and use new sharpening media for at least one year before deciding it does not work well.

 

I have two systems of sharpening, because they suit these tools best (in my opinion): for all bevel down planes and non-laminated chisels, blades are hollow ground and then free hand sharpened on the hollow, so creating a micro bevel.  For all laminated blades, such as Japanese blades, these are all free hand sharpened with a full, flat bevel.  For all bevel up planes, these are hollow ground at 25 degrees, and then a honing guide is used to produce a secondary micro bevel at 50 degrees (the only way to camber such high angles). If this helps any here, then wonderful. Otherwise carry on.

 

For the curious, this is the article I wrote on my set up: http://inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/UltimateGrindingSharpeningSetUp.html

 

In my experience, no new blade has ever come to me sharp enough to work at the level I seek. Blades come “workable”, but all manufacturers I know (and I have worked with a few) expect that their blades will be sharpened when unpacked. The thing about hand tools is that they require ongoing upkeep. 

 

Regards from Perth

 

Derek

[Gerald]

@PostalTom Part of tuning up a plane is adjusting the throat. Too wide and you get more chatter and tearout, Too narrow and it continually clogs. Usually moderate is better than wide.

[steven newman]

After reading through this last page.....about fell out of me chair, was laughing so hard!   I'll just sit back and watch....while letting the planes I have work the way they were designed for.    Not the least interested in micron thin shavings....prefer  a plane that will get the task done...and not take all day doing it....

 

( " My Sensei is better than your Sensei.   He chooses the One True Path...")  

Edited April 27, 2020 by steven newman

[Gunny]

@derekcohen  Thanks for a good explanation, very helpful.  And I agree sometimes the topic of sharpening can get like a sawstop one, dark and ugly very quickly.  I usually avoid commenting on such topics but find them very entertaining.

1 hour ago, derekcohen said:

(should I be surprised - my day job is a shrink)

 

 Little side note.  As a teenager my brother died so my parents sent me to see a counselor.  Don't know what kind but he was a Dr of something.  They gave me some oddball test that as I was taking it I noticed they asked the same series of questions in different ways over and over.  So I decided to mentally keep track and answered each one exactly opposite of the other.  (I seem to have some odd talent for seeing patterns.)   

 

He spent an hour with my parents going over the results.  Somehow I managed to flat line this test which as I recall should have highs and lows.  It baffled him.  They gave it to me 3 more times.  I thought it to be a game so I answered differently each test.  Finally we all get in session and he inquires about the test.  Not knowing any better I admitted I had seen the pattern and answered accordingly.  My Father was ready to kill, Mother had the laser beam eyes warming up ready to fire. 

 

The Doc was just looking at me like I had given him the ten commandments written in blood on stone tablets.  

 

The Military Doc's, oh yeah I had fun with them as well.  A nurse told me they labeled me as "challenging."  

Edited April 27, 2020 by Gunny

[John Morris]

1 hour ago, derekcohen said:

Regards from Perth

 

Derek

One think you'll never get from me Derek, is a disintegration of discussion, what kind of host would I be? Thanks for your opinions, as all opinions are in this community, yours is highly valued. Thanks Derek.

[John Morris]

12 minutes ago, steven newman said:

Not the least interested in micron thin shavings....prefer  a plane that will get the task done...and not take all day doing it...

And that my friend, is at the center of all of this.

 

[derekcohen]

26 minutes ago, Gunny said:

@derekcohen  Thanks for a good explanation, very helpful.  And I agree sometimes the topic of sharpening can get like a sawstop one, dark and ugly very quickly.  I usually avoid commenting on such topics but find them very entertaining.

 

 Little side note.  As a teenager my brother died so my parents sent me to see a counselor.  Don't know what kind but he was a Dr of something.  They gave me some oddball test that as I was taking it I noticed they asked the same series of questions in different ways over and over.  So I decided to mentally keep track and answered each one exactly opposite of the other.  (I seem to have some odd talent for seeing patterns.)   

 

He spent an hour with my parents going over the results.  Somehow I managed to flat line this test which as I recall should have highs and lows.  It baffled him.  They gave it to me 3 more times.  I thought it to be a game so I answered differently each test.  Finally we all get in session and he inquires about the test.  Not knowing any better I admitted I had seen the pattern and answered accordingly.  My Father was ready to kill, Mother had the laser beam eyes warming up ready to fire. 

 

The Doc was just looking at me like I had given him the ten commandments written in blood on stone tablets.  

 

The Military Doc's, oh yeah I had fun with them as well.  A nurse told me they labeled me as "challenging."  

Gunny, I am not sure that I should respond to this here ... but I guess there is a relationship with the topic, which is opinions about sharpening.

 

There is an old computer saying (back in the 70's ..): "Garbage in, garbage out". In other words, psychometric tests are no different from many other activities - there is no magic.  It is part of an interaction between two objects/people/etc. If one part does not wish to participate (behave in an oppositional way, that is, deliberately obscure and resist the interaction), then the result of this will be nonsensical. The counsellor will indeed scratch his/her head because they were hoping for a reciprocal relationship, with the intention to help, and not having to deal with a resistant and angry individual (which is not really so unusual given the circumstances of loss ... anger is one of the stage of bereavement).

 

Can we relate this to the thread at hand? I think so. Just look at the responses of others who immediately act in a defiant and aggressive manner or tone. 

 

Regards from Perth

 

Derek 

[John Morris]

57 minutes ago, derekcohen said:

Just look at the responses of others who immediately act in a defiant and aggressive manner or tone. 

Derek I am sorry you feel that way, as I don't see any aggressive manner or tone displayed here. A difference of opinion yes, but there is no aggressiveness here. Scratching head here, hmmm, perhaps this is a topic Dr. Phil should be involved in. 

All kidding aside, there is much expression and emotion and intent and feeling behind the text that cannot be displayed appropriately, it's just the nature of forums and interacting online, there are not enough emoji's in our vocabulary that could show a person smiling as they are typing, if you felt aggression was being perpetrated upon you, more than likely you misread the interaction, we are all a great friendly group here, dysfunctional at times, but aggressive? No.

Hope you feel better Derek about this topic, we are all in this together, learning, teaching, and collaborating. Folks have much to learn from you, and you have much to learn from others, and it all should be fun.

Cheers!