34 minutes ago, MrRick said:

Always tails first. Always. Cosman says this and so does Sellers.

Ya had to go there didn't ya Rick. 😁

Ya know, whenever I hear "always" as a definitive statement in our craft, I pause, and the "experienced" craftsman loses a smudge of credibility with me. Not you of course Rick, but I do pause hearing that from professionals.

To pile onto the debate, I just glanced at this page and on the surface it appears Klauz may be a pins first guy in some respect?

Wood and Shop

Hand Cut Dovetails With Frank Klausz (Pins First)

VIDEO: Frank Klausz shares his amazingly quick and accurate technique for "pins first" dovetails, using traditional woodworking hand tools.

LOL John... Yeah.. I'm at risk! But watch the video and you'll understand why according to Cosman. I don't make the statement lightly 🙂

When you cut dovetails first if you don't cut the angles (looking from to down) perfect is doesn't matter because you use the tails to mark the pins. The pins are cut straight down. You reduce the possibility of error. Anyways I've cut both ways and tails first improves your odds of perfect nice looking dovetails. Just sayin'.

Yes...Klausz is a "pins" man.

Edited April 20Apr 20 by MrRick

4 minutes ago, MrRick said:

Anyways I've cut both ways and tails first improves your odds of perfect nice looking dovetails. Just sayin'.

I agree completely with that, makes perfect sense. But, as in those skinny London pattern DT's I can see the benefit of pins first, I mean, we are talking skiiiiiiny!

London style dovetails...I still cut tails first. 🙂 Just sayin'

Day two, another practice session.

Laid out the tails.

Coping sawed and chopped the waste. I was very please how nicely my tails looked, pretty clean.

Then I transferred the pins and darkened the scribed lines with pencil, my eyes are horrible. Marked out the waste so I wouldn't get confused and accidentally cut a pin out.

And, guess what I did? 🤣

So I cut off the end of the board and started over.

The pins were looking pretty good, I am getting used to this a bit.

I should have taken a picture of the boards together before I cleaned them up, the joints looked pretty bad and IMO they don't look as clean and crisp as my second attempt yesterday. I cut these DT's at 1:9 and they were actually a tad too difficult to work with. So I think I'll be back to the 1:8 typical DT's for now till I can refine my technique with everything.

The image below looks much better than the joint really is, it does look pretty bad, worse than my attempt yesterday.

I was very hopeful while cutting and chopping, I felt more comfortable than I did yesterday, and I was sure this one was going to go together really clean, but it didn't. And I know at this point, it's down to technique, getting comfortable with it all, and confidence. I know I cut on the pin side of the line a little thus the gaps.

All in all, each attempt gets me closer to be better, and as it is with all new things to be learned, patience with self is key with me. I'll need dozens if not a hundred DT joints to be good and clean. It'll come!

Hmmm...I always do pins first...easier to mark out the tails, that way..

Dry fit...

Needs a bit of fine tuning..

.

Back corner of a Bread Box...

Been so long since I did any I do not remember which was first. I do remember (I think it was Roy Underhill ) the fit should be such that the only thing needed to put the joint together is the slap from your hat. I had great difficulty with his joint until I read an article in Wood Cuts , a magazine published by Leonard Lee . It seemed to lift the veil that had blinded me about the joint. After learning I found a PC Jig , built like a tank and that was the way I went. Always felt it was the King of joinery .

At the state fair 4-H woodworking competition, the skills test for the top category is to hand cut a dovetail joint. Every once in a while there is one that apparently, they have no idea what to do. One last year looked like a double set of pins with 1/4" gap between them.

@kmealy did it look like this?

@John Morris your day two practice came along nicely. Keep up the good work!! 👍

1 hour ago, MrRick said:

@John Morris your day two practice came along nicely. Keep up the good work!! 👍

Thanks Rick, any suggestions on closing up those gaps?

11 minutes ago, John Morris said:

Thanks Rick, any suggestions on closing up those gaps?

Gaps happen mainly because placement of the saw edge was put on the line instead of inside edge of line. Just be very diligent where and how you place your saw tooth edge to the line whether penciled or knife scribed. It is better to be too tight on the pin openings (if you're doing tails first) then not. You can always pare on opening to fit the tails. Also practice how you place and move your saw. The motion of sawing should be inline. Your wrist should be locked and the saw, hand, forearm, upper arm and shoulder should all move together inline like a trains wheel in motion. Practice to the side on a 2 x 4. Scribe a perfect pencil line all around on the 2 x 4 and start cutting. Watch your ability to cut all around on that line. If you are off its because you've not stayed inline this motion.

Cheers!

Rick

Edited April 21Apr 21 by MrRick

4 minutes ago, MrRick said:

(if you're doing tails first)

For now that's how I'm doing them, till I get feisty, but for now I'm sticking with seemingly tradition.

Thanks for the tips Rick!

One thing I found that helped me, when cutting tails, was to position the tailboard so that I am cutting a vertical line instead of trying to maintain the angle.

Left image show the tail drawn out. Center image is how I would position the board for cutting the left side of the tail. Right image for cutting the right side of the tail. It works for me. The other thing I do is to carry the cut lines across the end of the board and down the "back side" to make sure I'm keeping things square and equal.

7 minutes ago, John Morris said:

For now that's how I'm doing them, till I get feisty, but for now I'm sticking with seemingly tradition.

Thanks for the tips Rick!

Don't get feisty! .... Just get better!! 🙂 just sayin'

5 minutes ago, lew said:

One thing I found that helped me, when cutting tails, was to position the tailboard so that I am cutting a vertical line instead of trying to maintain the angle.

Thanks Lew! I can try that!

Really... my favorite person to learn cutting dovetails is Paul Sellers. He's a gentleman, teaches patiently and very well, very technical, and been cutting them over 60 years. Plus it's all on YouTube. Watch everything you can multiple times and you will benefit from his wisdom.

I like YouTube as much as the next guy Rick, but I really love hearing what you all have to say on any subject. Looking in time to time on a technique or subject at YouTube is fine, I do that, but I really like to get the main body of anything from you all here, you all are wonderful!