Lew suggested:

This would probably make a great thread. Tips, jigs, processes, etc. on hand cut dovetails.

 

Well, here it is.  Let's see some postings.  Here are some of my trials and errors.
Let's start the meeting.

 

Hi, I'm Keith and I have a hand cut dovetail problem.  (all) "Hi, Keith."

 

I have read about the "blue masking tape technique."   I tried that last week once and (stupid me) I pulled off the wrong part prior to cutting the pins.

 

I few years ago, I practiced a joint-a-day prior to making some boxes for coasters for Christmas presents.   They turned out well, but I got out of practice.

 

I recently did some through dovetails on the tool totes I made and they came out "OK".

 

I also read a "handy hint" about using a mortising machine to chop out the last bit of a half-blind pin, the chiseling the rest. Hmm, not convinced that's not just a gimmick.

 

My first lesson in hand-cut dovetails was at a Tage Frid seminar.  If you know much about him, you know he used a large bow saw.  And if there were gaps, he had two fixes: 1) saw in a kerf at the gap and put in a shim or 2)take a hammer and pound the end grain to push it into the gap.   Neither appealed much to me.

 

Second lesson was a Frank Klausz video.  Frank prides himself on speed.   That's great, but led me down the wrong path for a while.  Skill first, then speed, not vice-versa.  "You don't need to mark, just cut.   You know which side is outside and which side is inside, just cut the angle.  Etc."

 

 

Popular Woodworking once had an article on making a couple of cutting guides, sort of "training wheels for the dovetailer."  I made them but only used once or twice.

 

Next lesson was Paul Sellers who introduced "knife wall" that helped me quite a bit.

 

The one thing I've never tried is (I think Chris Schwarz's) method of putting a rabbet on the back edge of the tail piece.  I guess that makes a neater joint (no visible gaps) on the inside and helps align up for scribing the pin cut lines.

 

Somewhere in there I got a P-C dovetail jig.  It makes nice uniform dovetails, but I learned you need to plan your joint height (e.g., drawer height) to the spacing on the jig.   And it only makes half-blind.

 

Then I got another jig that was supposed to be a great, adaptable jig.  I went to a day long class and it still took me over two days of studying and making notes and diagrams that are not in the 50 page manual before I could do my first set.  Its main problem is its complexity and you have to make constant changes and adjustments from one cut to the next.  It's easy to screw things up.  My long-standing statement is, "Every time you have to change something, it gives you a chance to make an error."  With it, even though I think I've done everything right and double checked, I do get some gaps once in a while.  So now it mostly sits on a shelf of regretted purchases.  The last time I used it, I managed to fill in the problem areas with my burn-in skills.

 

So, I occasionally persist but fall in the same camp as Fred, for now.  Recently, I decided to try the "Joint-a-day" for a month and see what happens.

 

But the real question, "Pins first or tails first?"   I find it easier to mark the pins from the tails than vice-versa and it's easier to make a 90 degree cut to fit than an angled one, so if I'm off a bit on the tail angle, I can just adapt the pin.

Edited October 5, 20205 yr by kmealy

You certainly have spent slot of time in research as well as seminars.  Still it's tough.  I rarely use them.  Choosing finger joints instead.  But I have been paying attention to @steven newman

Well, the seminars were not all dovetailing, just one topic.

I tend to do pins first, as it is easier for me to see and mark out lines for the tails......and, the more line you leave when sawing the tails...the tighter the joint will be.  

 

Because when I lay out for the tails, I stand the pin board straight up, hold it in place with my chin....a sharp pencil to trace around each pin.   Then saw and chop out the waste....cut on the waste side of the lines.    "Knife wall" works for a place to hold the chisel in the "Baseline"  One light pass, then 2-3 heavy ones...then peel a bit of waste back to the line, THEN chop down, as the bevel now has a place to go...peel, chop, peel a bit more, then chop....do the show face first, go 1/2 way down, flip over and finish the chopping..

Nice when I need a mallet to drive things together...

 

1/2 blind dovetails?    I cheat, of course.....I set up the router with a 1/2" Dovetail bit...and cut the pins with that.   Then use the pins to layout the tails....and saw those.   I still have to use a chisel for both.....to clean up after the router bit, and to chop out the tails.   Router jig? no...I set the pin board into the end vise of the bench. 2 stop lines, one as the "baseline" the other is where I stop in the vise....set so the base ofthe router hits the top of the vise, just BEFORE it cuts the baseline....

 

I did try tails first, once..

To lay out for the router cuts..

Then set up the router to cut these out...

Came out a little too loose for my taste....went back to pins first.

Seemed to work much better.

 

Well my experience started with a magazine called I think "Wood Cuts" published by the founder of Lee Valley. Had read a lot and see NYW and Woodwright methods but the article in Wood Cuts was the foundation so I could understand it.

The drawers on this are handcut and were my forst foray into dovetail drawer joints. Now I use mostly sliding dovetail cut on router table for drawer fronts.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Top is a sliding dovetail and similar on the stand. Ok off topic these ain't drawers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well after this project I discovered the Keller Jig. You have to make a jig to mount it on and it is used at router table. It does work but is somewhat limited in the joints you can make. Used it on this box or actually made two , with one for a friend.

 

 

Another box.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The I found the PC Omnijig at a shop the widow was selling out. That thing is built like a tank. Had the instructions and all but I did have to find a video to do it right. It does do thru dovetails but the jig to do it is not available and I finally stopped looking . It did come with a fingerjoint jig.

PC Omnijig my way

For the torture I'm doing to myself today, I'm cutting the pins first, then the tails. As some have said, it just seems easier to mark the tails from the pins. But the parts I'm dovetailing are rather small, being 1 1/4" wide and 1/2" thick, so there is only 1 tail between two 1/2 pins. Should I add, it's a PITA?

 

Sorry, got that backwards, I'm cutting the tails first, then marking the pins. Oh, heck...I don't know. I can't tails from pins.

Edited October 5, 20205 yr by Fred W. Hargis Jr

I had the 16" Omnijig from PC with all of the templates. Took a long time to dial in and didn't use it much so I'd forget how.

 

I'm a tails first person. Just how I learned. 

 

When we had Bathfitters do the tub/shower I  built new cabinetry. Dovetailed all the drawers- front and back-

 

Long time ago, I made a bunch of candle boxes from an article in Woodcraft Magazine-

 

 

I need to get better at making the dovetails look more elegant. After I bought the Omnijig, I decided to build this blanket chest. The sides were too big for the jig. Needed to learn the hand cut method. As Keith mentioned, a few of these have shims-

 

 

This was the most recent project- a shotgun case. Notice the unbelievable mistake!

 

 

This is an interesting article on a "no measure" layout for dovetails-

https://www.popularwoodworking.com/video/use-dividers-for-quick-easy-dovetail-layout-no-measuring/

 

Some cool templates-

https://www.blocklayer.com/woodjoints/dovetaileng.aspx

 

 

Edited October 5, 20205 yr by lew

I have a couple of projects to make dovetails, but I need step by step instructions so I can get it in my celless brain.  I will return with what I have so I can show where and how I make mistakes.  Thanks for this thread.  

@lew I wrote some notes that jig  notes on the templates for set up and that helps a lot. When I First got this I could not believe how heavy it was. Built like a tank

After spending about 3 hours yesterday putzing with my handcut dovetails, I concluded the pieces (1 /14" wide x <1/2" thick) I'm using are too small for me to DT (a much better excuse than saying I'm too much of a klutz to do them). Most of my effort was cutting the tails first since marking the pins on such a small piece was a PITA. I might resume today with some larger (or at least wider) pieces, but I'm thinking my Jennings bit box will wind up with box joints. When (if) I get back to this I'll try cutting the pins first.

As an alternative, I often do contrasting wood keys (this wood was only about 3/8" thick)

 

 Or box joints, that I done with router table and Incra-Jig, table saw, or shop-built (and tuned) jig (note that a dado set will not always give you a 0.250" dado), or my latest jig with hand-held router and flush cut bit

 

 

Alrighty, I'll weigh in on this as I've just started my practicing

 

Tails first, pins next. I'm probably combining Rob Cosman, Matt Estlea and Chris Schwartz. All hand cut, using the divider method ("no measure" Lew referred to, as I've seen Chris Schwartz do it). Knife wall on the back of the tails to help line up the pin board. Disclaimer: I have the Jonathan Katz-Moses jigs, which at least helped me get my cut lines straighter and angles all the same. Just my poor cutting skills to blame for the mess

 

First time ever on Monday that I attempted these. The "no measure" option works great, as to cutting pine, I got a lot of tearout. My chisels should have been sharp enough, but I'll sharpen the one I had issues with again anyway.

The beech was easy to cut, so practice will help. I need a fret saw, as it has a thinner and smaller blade. The coping saw I have is just too wide a blade and unwieldy. It was also my first time using my Japanese saws (in this case Sunchild Dozuki) and I thoroughly enjoyed the experience.

All 3 attempts below. The beech without writing was the 2nd attempt and came out better.

 

 

Edited October 7, 20205 yr by 1fizgig

Much better than my first attempt!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the first two photos, it appears the grain goes left to right across the joint.  This will result in a lot of short-grain in the joint making an extremely weak joint.   The third one shows the correct grain orientation.

5 hours ago, kmealy said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the first two photos, it appears the grain goes left to right across the joint.  This will result in a lot of short-grain in the joint making an extremely weak joint.   The third one shows the correct grain orientation.

Yes, but because of the pieces of glue-lam I used, that was the grain direction. It is of course not the way I would use it on an actual piece. But for practice, scraps are king.

 

I think part of my problem is that you need some skill with other tools besides the chisels to do DTs. Especially the hand saw....cutting where you want and following a line is kind of important. Neither of which is something I do very often (if at all).

Sawing dovetails are no different to sawing tenons, or any other joinery - one has to mark cleanly, see clearly, and saw to the lines. 

 

Basic dovetails can be quickly mastered with persistence and practice - just have a "go for it" attitude!

 

More advanced dovetails take a little longer

 

 

Through dovetails:  http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ThroughDovetails3.html

 

 

 

Half-blind dovetails:  http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/HalfBlindDovetailswithBlueTape.html

 

 

 

Houndstooth dovetail:  http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/BuidingaBench4.html

 

 

 

Mitred through dovetails:  http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/AnotherCoffeeTable2.html

 

 

Regards from Perth

 

Derek

Edited October 8, 20205 yr by derekcohen

1 minute ago, derekcohen said:

Sawing dovetails are no different to sawing tenons, or any other joinery - one has to mark cleanly, see clearly, and saw to the lines. 

 

Basic dovetails can be quickly mastered with persistence and practice - just have a "go for it" attitude!

 

More advanced dovetails take a little longer

 

 

Through dovetails:  http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ThroughDovetails3.html

 

 

 

Half-blind dovetails:  http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/HalfBlindDovetailswithBlueTape.html

 

 

 

Houndstooth dovetail:  http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/BuidingaBench4.html

 

 

 

Mitred through dovetails:  http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/AnotherCoffeeTable2.html

 

 

Regards from Perth

 

Derek

On 10/6/2020 at 7:26 PM, Fred W. Hargis Jr said:

After spending about 3 hours yesterday putzing with my handcut dovetails, I concluded the pieces (1 /14" wide x <1/2" thick) I'm using are too small for me to DT (a much better excuse than saying I'm too much of a klutz to do them). Most of my effort was cutting the tails first since marking the pins on such a small piece was a PITA. I might resume today with some larger (or at least wider) pieces, but I'm thinking my Jennings bit box will wind up with box joints. When (if) I get back to this I'll try cutting the pins first.

 

Box for a shoulder plane ...

 

 

 

3" long x 1 1/4" wide

 

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/Alittlefunwithdovetails.html

 

Regards from Perth

 

Derek

Edited October 8, 20205 yr by derekcohen

Box for a Block Plane..or two...

and..

Lid?

 

When you slide the lid shut..

Hard to tell which way the lid will slide...