2 hours ago, Gunny said:

A nurse told me they labeled me as "challenging."

Gunny, if I was a brain doc, and I saw you coming, I'd run for the hills. There's waaaay too much there!

The last few postings reminded me of something that happened to me a few years ago. I almost got kicked off a forum for trying to teach people on how to sharpen band saw blades with a dremel. Some people thought it was impossible and they did not want me posting such garbage. Everybody's different and has there own way to do things.  

I didn't mean to kick a hornet's nest with the sharpening discussion.  My take away from all the back and forth is that sharpening methods are much like haircuts.  There is no one size fits all.  Whatever works for you and that you are satisfied with is the one to use.

Iron vs Bronze....yet...nobody mentioned the wooden ones?  

 

Look at both the top shelf, and the very top on my Plane Til...

That long plane on top...is a 22" long No. 81....red arrow points to an Ohio Tool Co. No. 035 ( with a very thick, tapered iron, BTW)

Second shelf done....WR #62  along with other Iron age planes...but...not a single "Sun tan"  Bronze in sight.  

 

And...wooden bodies are indeed lighter in weight. 

Sharpening?  leave that for another thread...but.."We have ways"

I agree John. All I'm seeing is people telling what works for them. No criticism of others points of view. As for me, sharpening has never been my thing. I use my "WorkSharp" to do most of my sharpening and fine tune using the scary sharp method. As a hobbiest who isn't in the shop every day, this is a quick and easy sharpening system for me. I do read everyone's hints, feeling I might try other's methods to see if they might help me.

We're a friendly group here Derek. Over the years, I've had the opportunity to learn a lot from the folks here. I've learned that what works for some may not necessarily be the best for others, but it is nice to have the experience of others to guide you.

3 hours ago, steven newman said:

Iron vs Bronze....yet...nobody mentioned the wooden ones? 

Stop it!

Hmmmm...Maybe a new avatar?

Stanley No. 31.....doing what it does best...

New tech?

Or, from before the Bronze Age?

Might be a little hard to sharpen...

On 4/26/2020 at 10:18 AM, PostalTom said:

Well, I finally pulled the trigger and bought the LN #4 bronze bodied.  I haven't honed the blade and tried it out yet as I have another project in work, but I will reach a point where it will become useful, and I will post my experiences and opinion when I do

I've been using the #4, and here are my comments, as promised.  I followed @John Morris suggestion, and have not yet tried to hone the blade.  To be honest, if further honing or sharpening would improve the performance of the plane, I don't think I would be able to detect it.  I'm using it on some douglas fir, so a test on some hardwood might enlighten me further.  And, I wanted the experience of right out of the box, so that I would have a basis for comparison when I do decide to hone the iron.  The only issue I have at the moment, and that is not a problem with the plane as my learning curve, is getting the cap iron at the proper tightness to allow easy adjustment of the blade, while keeping the adjustments from wandering.  Trial and error, I will get there.  I am working on the saw bench featured in FWW, as it looked to be a good project to improve and "hone" my hand tool skills.  

 

It feels good to be back in the shop again.  I had a period of time where I wasn't able to get down there much, and I didn't realize how much I missed it.  

@PostalTom, I am glad it worked out for ya, that has been my experience as well, also I have received Veritas planes beautifully sharpened as well, out of the box. Run your plane across some hard wood, you'll be equally impressed.

As far as the lever cap goes, play with it, you should be able to adjust your wheel with one finger (typically the forefinger) on the fly. So just take your straight slot driver and give the frog screw, or cap screw, can't remember what it's called, and give it a slight turn, and lock the cam in place, and see if you can turn the wheel with one finger. The wheel should be firmly movable, not freely, not too tight you can't move it, but firmly moveable. You'll get it.

So happy you are happy!

 

PS, LN recommends when you get your new plane, honing your iron for about 5 minutes on "your finest stone", their words. Honestly I have enjoyed their planes out of the box.  

2 hours ago, John Morris said:

PS, LN recommends when you get your new plane, honing your iron for about 5 minutes on "your finest stone", their words. Honestly I have enjoyed their planes out of the box.  

 

At the risk of harping on a topic, no manufacturer says that their blades are ready to go when purchased; all state that they need to be honed. I harp because I would not like readers here to believe that these plane blade edges are good enough or a measure of what edges should be like.

 

In addition to LN, Lee Valley/Veritas state, "All our blades have a lapped face and are ground with a bevel that requires only final honing to 30° before use".

 

HNT Gordon state, "If it is a new blade, you may need to hone the back of the blade quite a bit, until it is completely flat at the edge. To sharpen your blade ..."

 

I accept that a blade will appear to be sharp and can be used out of the box, but this does not mean that the edge is working sharp. It really comes down to the wood you are planing, and your expectations (which is also a function of your experience). Paul Sellers has demonstrated planing with a coarsely sharpened plane blade (250 grit), which shows it can be done, but he notes it is significantly harder to push than (what he refers to as) 15000 grit (I would have liked to have seen him try this with hardwood, and especially something that was not perfectly clear as his test board - that was cheating). Paul made this video in reaction to "magazines saying that you need 20000 .. 50000 grit". The irony here is that Paul includes Veritas green compound in his honing procedure, stropping about 50x on it at the end. Green compound is 0.5 micron, which is 60000 grit! Good one Paul!

 

I work with hardwoods, and the grain on these are mostly interlocked. If I left the plane blades at 400 grit (as reported by Lee Valley), it would leave a poor surface riddled with tearout. You may get away for a while with clear Pine or Walnut, both easy-to-plane woods. Still, the surface quality of the wood would not be nearly as good as even 6000 or 8000 grit.

 

Regards from Perth

 

Derek

 

 

Edited May 9, 20205 yr by derekcohen

Interesting and informative post @derekcohen  New to hand planes myself and which one to use and such.  Very helpful.

10 hours ago, derekcohen said:

In addition to LN, Lee Valley/Veritas state, "All our blades have a lapped face and are ground with a bevel that requires only final honing to 30° before use".

That is confusing Derek, perhaps if we purchase their blades only outside of a plane body?

Yet if you look at their manual they state their planes come honed and ready for use. Honestly, that is my experience, they have come honed and ready for use, but then again, it appears you are probably much more demanding than I could ever be. You are a wonderful woodworker Derek, your care and concern for blade sharpness cannot be ignored, but as we have determined here folks just have differing levels of, or ideas of how sharp a blade needs to be. 

See link and scroll down to blade sharpening to view their statement that their blades are ready to use out of the box.

https://assets.leevalley.com/Original/10091/46294-veritas-4-smooth-plane-c-01-e.pdf

 

Technically, you are very correct, the blades are not as sharp as they could be. But are they sharp enough for me? Yes. Are they sharp enough for Derek? Hell no! And that is why, woodworkers are all different, our experiences are unique to our needs.

 

I'll close with this, and you all can have the floor without anymore commentary from me, frankly the whole sharpening stuff bores the heck out of me, I am probably not the best example of a woodworker who's tools are dead sharp or even correctly sharpened, I sharpen by hand, I don't care about secondary bevels or back bevels, I don't really care about micron thin shavings, all I care about is if I'm able to process the wood from rough to smooth, I can look at my surface and see shine after running my plane over the last time, and it's ready for finish. I think my work speaks for itself, I feel I am a pretty decent fellow with a hammer and saw and plane, and the shavings I get are wistfully beautiful.

10 hours ago, derekcohen said:

At the risk of harping on a topic

I love harping, it's fun to read.

10 hours ago, derekcohen said:

I harp because I would not like readers here to believe that these plane blade edges are good enough or a measure of what edges should be like.

And my last word, this is your opinion, and we all have em, and all are respected.

Cheers!

Edit to add: 

Quote

That is confusing Derek, perhaps if we purchase their blades only?

This for all blades, regardless of maker and whether they are after-market or purchased with a plane. I have visited the Veritas factory and watched the preparation of blades. I have also been testing their pre-production tools (for the factory) for about 15 years. Veritas are the State of the Art, and their blades end at 400 grit. It is that they are lapped so flat that makes it possible to prepare them quickly for higher grits. 

 

John, I did say that everyone is different in their needs and I would never tell another to change their methods if it works for them. I only comment when there is a perception left that a method is the final word. Rarely is that ever the case for anything in woodworking. Most find this out by experience. I simply wanted to alert the inexperienced here to keep an open mind. That is my last word on this topic. This was a civil discussion. We are still friends as far as I am concerned.

 

Regards from Perth

 

Derek

 

 

Edited May 9, 20205 yr by derekcohen

This is probably more of a question than a statement of fact. To begin as a woodturner we have to sharpen frequently during a bowl. These sharpenings are different in that there are different kinds of sharpening for different tools. Gouges cut with the sharp edge and not the burr, while scrapers usually cut best with the burr.

     Now in reference to the burr , once applied to wood the burr on a scraper is gone within 30 seconds. So with this in mind how long can we expect a sharpened plane to last if sharpened to 16000?

Gerald

 

How long is a piece of string?

 

You know from turning that some woods are harder or more abrasive than others. It depends.

 

Similarly, you could use high carbon steel (O1), or you could use A2, or M2 or M4 steel in the lathe chisel. They all hold up differently. In plane blades, A2 will last twice as long as O1, and PM-V11 will last twice as long as A2. LN only offers A2, while Veritas offers all. 

 

A2 is a good steel, but it is made of large carbide grains and the edge is harder to sharpen. The wire is difficult to remove. That can interfere with sharpness. O1 and PM-V11 (a powdered, sintered steel) have very fine grain, with minimal wire and are easier to sharpen and both take the finest edge.

 

Honing to a higher grit extends the edge retention. Think of this: which would you rather use, a hand plane with a rough sole, or a hand plane with smooth sole which has also been waxed?

 

Regards from Perth

 

Derek

1 minute ago, derekcohen said:

 

Honing to a higher grit extends the edge retention. Think of this: which would you rather use, a hand plane with a rough sole, or a hand plane with smooth sole which has also been waxed?

 

Regards from Perth

 

Derek

My point is does the edge last longer with the extremes you take sharpening to. Now I have seen this same discussion of going to 6000 and the consensus is yes it is sharper but lasts no longer than sharpening to 220 or 360. So does a plane sharpening last longer and my suposition from your post is that it does.

2 hours ago, Gerald said:

My point is does the edge last longer with the extremes you take sharpening to. Now I have seen this same discussion of going to 6000 and the consensus is yes it is sharper but lasts no longer than sharpening to 220 or 360. So does a plane sharpening last longer and my suposition from your post is that it does.

Gerald, yes the edge lasts longer with a higher grit. 

 

How much longer? It depends on all the factors I mentioned before. But, assuming all conditions are equal, 8000 grit will last until it becomes 6000 grit by wear, which will last until it becomes 4000 grit by wear, which will last until it becomes 1000 grit .... all the way to 250 grit.

 

Regards from Perth

 

Derek

All I ever ask of a plane's sharp iron, is that it will stay sharp through the project I am working on.....There is usually a few days of downtime between projects, I can always refresh edges then.....so far....there has been a Stanley #3, type 11, with the OEM iron,  that has lasted through 3 large projects, without needing a touch up.....iron is 25 degrees, no extra bevels, sharpened to 2500 grit, and then stropped.   I don't need to see micron thin shavings, I just need the work to get done....

 

I size the planes used, to the size of the work needing done.   Less wear & tear on a single plane, that way......no sense of using a #3 when a #6 or #7 plane will do the job needed done.