7 hours ago, sreilly24590 said:

All good points and leads me to believe I've gotten lazier. Maybe if I get a better sander it won't hurt so bad. I guess I need to start thinking in a different direction. So any sanding on the plywood before stain/finish or just clean and apply? Sand in between coats I understand. 

 

 

Get a good ROS sander,Bosch,miwaukee, makita etc.and a bunch of different grit  ,100g.120g,150g,220gg,320g,400g, all HOOK & LOOP backing, and once you get to doing sanding it will not become so tedious. You will be looking for flaws and imperfections that will stand out after the finish goes on and need attention before it goes to the finish stage. Also use some shellac and sawdust to fill in voids and cracks, and your projects will go up a few notches in perfection.  you will be surprised at first at the things you find to fix while sanding that make the project better, and you a better craftsman.

As far as sanding plywood, a good going over with150-220g. will make plywood look 100% better. And like Bill says, get rid of those pesky splinters. If you notice plywood will hold a lot of fine sawdust on the surface before it is sanded, this causes a rough finish when the finish goies on. sanded plywood it nice and smooth, but will still raise a few nubs when sealed, once these are removed plywood will finish nicely. Remember that the plys are very thin, so easy does it.

 

Herb

save the sanding swarf...

I don't have many visitors to the shop so I don't worry too much about appearance.

7 hours ago, schnewj said:

 

Ditto.

 

 

...but it doesn't have to be tedious. When I use Shellac, which dries quickly, it is basically a quick once over to knock off the "nibs". You're not trying to sand everything level, smooth out the material, etc., that should have already been done. Basically, a "quick swipe" with the sandpaper, a quick tack wipe and your ready for the next coat.

 

If your real aversion is due to the mess from any sanding dust, try 3M non-woven pads. They are great for getting rid of the "nibs" with none of the sanding mess.

This may help...

 

COLOR CODES NON-WOVEN PADS.pdf 15.84 kB · 1 download

 

 

Totally agree...

 

 

Hmmm! Good point. Color coding jigs to specific tasks. Sort of like like how Festool uses green on anything that is made to be adjustable on the tool. Although, I don't keep many jigs around, they are usually made, used and repurposed, the ones that do remain sometimes  get "lost in the background" when hung on a wall of stuffed on a shelf. Color coding a certain jig as a visual cue, could guide you right to it.

 

 

Another good set of points. I just got back, man am I tired, almost 5 hours on the road and then the Woodworking show. 1st let me say that I sat in on a talk about finishing by a fellow named Bill Bush and his talk was "Prepping & Finishing a Surface - The Three Phase System". Now I admit what he showed was extremely nice finish using his brand oil, his branded sand papers, and his system. The kits he had were available there but I wasn't quite ready for that yet. I sat up front, listened, and saw his method and understand his reasoning. I really liked the finish and that was just one of his usual 3 coats with light sanding in between of course. I've scanned and attached his 4 page handout for those interested. The two PDFs are the same except for how they were scanned. The first was the handout opened and scanned front and back where the second is in the 4 page booklet form. A few other heavy hitters were there such as Woodpeckers and Lee Valley with the full complement of their planes for onhand use. I have to admit having the ability to put hands on gives you a much better feel of what you're ordering. They were taking orders only w/free shipping. About as close to a discount as you'll get from what I gather. But the highlight was my first 5-10 minutes in the door. I went straight up to Alex Snodgrass and had a fantastic conversation with him. He was the person who put me on the straight and narrow with resawing. Talking to him and getting their guides for my saw was a huge thrill. Worth the 2+ hours both way and the, seemed like forever wait for the doors to open (28 minutes) with bathrooms only on the inside behind those locked doors. Shouldn't have had those 3 mugs of coffee......

 

Hope the attachments are of some use to youse guys

Bill Bush Finishing101.pdf Bill Bush Finishing001.pdf

8 hours ago, schnewj said:

 

Ditto.

 

 

...but it doesn't have to be tedious. When I use Shellac, which dries quickly, it is basically a quick once over to knock off the "nibs". You're not trying to sand everything level, smooth out the material, etc., that should have already been done. Basically, a "quick swipe" with the sandpaper, a quick tack wipe and your ready for the next coat.

 

If your real aversion is due to the mess from any sanding dust, try 3M non-woven pads. They are great for getting rid of the "nibs" with none of the sanding mess.

This may help...

 

COLOR CODES NON-WOVEN PADS.pdf 15.84 kB · 1 download

 

 

Totally agree...

 

 

Hmmm! Good point. Color coding jigs to specific tasks. Sort of like like how Festool uses green on anything that is made to be adjustable on the tool. Although, I don't keep many jigs around, they are usually made, used and repurposed, the ones that do remain sometimes  get "lost in the background" when hung on a wall of stuffed on a shelf. Color coding a certain jig as a visual cue, could guide you right to it.

 

 

Another good set of points. I just got back, man am I tired, almost 5 hours on the road and then the Woodworking show. 1st let me say that I sat in on a talk about finishing by a fellow named Bill Bush and his talk was "Prepping & Finishing a Surface - The Three Phase System". Now I admit what he showed was extremely nice finish using his brand oil, his branded sand papers, and his system. The kits he had were available there but I wasn't quite ready for that yet. I sat up front, listened, and saw his method and understand his reasoning. I really liked the finish and that was just one of his usual 3 coats with light sanding in between of course. I've scanned and attached his 4 page handout for those interested. The two PDFs are the same except for how they were scanned. The first was the handout opened and scanned front and back where the second is in the 4 page booklet form. A few other heavy hitters were there such as Woodpeckers and Lee Valley with the full complement of their planes for onhand use. I have to admit having the ability to put hands on gives you a much better feel of what you're ordering. They were taking orders only w/free shipping. About as close to a discount as you'll get from what I gather. But the highlight was my first 5-10 minutes in the door. I went straight up to Alex Snodgrass and had a fantastic conversation with him. He was the person who put me on the straight and narrow with resawing. Talking to him and getting their guides for my saw was a huge thrill. Worth the 2+ hours both way and the, seemed like forever wait for the doors to open (28 minutes) with bathrooms only on the inside behind those locked doors. Shouldn't have had those 3 mugs of coffee......

 

Hope the attachments are of some use to youse guys

 

Forgot the website https://bushproducts.com/

For shop stuff I don't go crazy with sanding.  ROS with 120 grit, wipe it down look for any serious marks or imperfections and touch up with paper or my hand block sander.  Then switch to 150 hit it lightly and rounds the edges over slightly.  Paint, stain, poly, shellac varnish or whatever you like.  Couple coats of paint or 3 coats of poly is my normal method.  Green scuff pad in between coats.  All that it takes is at the end of the day cut off 30 minutes early and do finish work.  Next day repeat until the items are done.  Meanwhile other projects get worked on each night.  

Edited March 24, 20197 yr by Woodbutcherbynight

Anyone put finish on shop jigs ? I have. Depends on what it is.

Edited March 24, 20197 yr by CharlieL

13 hours ago, sreilly24590 said:

Hope the attachments are of some use to youse guys

 

Looks like some useful info in that pdf you posted up.  Thanks!

One of the things expressed at the Woodworkers Show by Bill Bush was that a ROS is not a good tool when used as a sander due to its design and the nature of grain. As explained by Bill the ROS is well, random, and grain has a direction(s) so it doesn't do a great job of smoothing or cutting the wood surface. It does smooth the surface but not so much as you would get sanding in the direction of the grain. At this point I should have asked if ROS's aren't intended for preliminary sanding and not finish sanding. I see his point but wonder if this isn't getting really specific, I mean like down to a very, very small scale. Now his demonstration was using a small, being like 10x20" small Ash raised panel. The wood had been sized and shaped with the profile cut. His presentation showed how to make a wood sanding block as described in the PDF and get the exact profile by holding the end (top/bottom) lined up with the panel's profile and tracing it with a pencil. Then take a block plane and plane out the majority of the waste before sanding it down to the finished line. To get the exact profile you place the sand paper face up on the profile and sand the block util it fits exactly. Simple but something I wouldn't have thought of I don't think. Using soft wood it went fairly quickly and the jig actually holds the sandpaper tightly. He used a brush to brush off both sandpaper and wood after each grade and the paper he was using doesn't seem to load up. He started at 80 grit and worked up to 400. By time he got to 400 it was totally smooth but then he used the  White Fibratex Pad and then the Gray Fibratex Pad wiping them down with a cotton cloth each time. By that time there was a shean to the wood that was even smoother than after the 400 grit sandpaper and looked like it already had a finish applied to it. Using the foam brush and liberally applying the Bush Oil you could see an immediate focus of the wood grain. Letting that oil soak in and then wiping down, again with a cotton cloth, left it looking better than most projects I had ever finished and he wasn't even done. All toll he used 3 coats but of course there wasn't time to demo that but had finished panels that had been. In between he used light sanding and the pads which helped release the particles clinging to the surface leaving it as smooth as I've ever felt wood be. As I write this I begin to wonder if I shouldn't have ponied up the $85 for the kit. Of course the kit only had 1 sanding "block" and his suggestion was to have one for each grade if you did much finishing which makes sense but @ $19.95 each you have $100 invested already plus the supplies but again if they last and make the process go smoother and faster..........He also makes a living at creating and making product for his clients so there is a return on his efficiency. A quart of his oil is $29.95 and that seems reasonable, well actually Watco is about half that but then I couldn't tell you if there's a real difference between the two oils. What I saw of the oil applied was great but whether I could get that result, I don't know and will need to try. 

 

The idea of having sanding blocks marked and ready with the sandpaper makes good sense. The other takeaway was creating the profile sanding blocks mentioned above. So watching this demonstration was very beneficial and has spurred an interest in finishing. Will I go to this extent for shop stuff? Probably not but I'll certainly change my method of finishing to see if I can replicate Bill's finish which was far better than I had been doing ever. From the hand sanding to the oil application using the cotton cloth to wipe and the pads to release and discard the finer particles. I t was an eye opening experience that certainly left a strong impression. Between my personal talk with Alex Snodgrass and this demonstration, the trip was well worth the time and energy. Now I gotta pay shipping on the kit...........

I actually just ordered the kit from here. The more I thought about it the more sense it was to give this a try on my projects and see if it delivers what I saw in person. I don't think this is snake oil but it would be interesting to see if it is much different that say Watco Danish Oil. Time will tell.......

I've been using Charles Neal's methods for several years now. The video below explains how to achieve a glass smooth surface on any type of wood. Charles is a slow talker and his methods are not quick, but no really good finishing method is. Try it, you'll like it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mjTSIiUiEOI 

You Tube won't let me embed the video. You may need to search You Tube for "trace coating with charles neal". It's worth your time, though.

2 hours ago, sreilly24590 said:

The idea of having sanding blocks marked and ready with the sandpaper makes good sense.

 

 

Several years ago I cam across a CL deal on 120,150,220 rolls of adhesive backed sandpaper 3 inches wide.  I have several blocks and contour sanding sticks set up with various grits.

 

As far as finishes there will be a multitude of opinions, theories and methods.  Myself I like Charles Neil's approach and his presentation.  Do I use it on everything?  NO.  Shop stuff gets basic sanding and that is more than enough.  Some look better than others, a lot of times this is me trying out a different method.  For the projects I bring in the house a great many have had the ROS used and they look fine.  You can quickly go into overkill mode with this.  

 

 

3 hours ago, sreilly24590 said:

One of the things expressed at the Woodworkers Show by Bill Bush was that a ROS is not a good tool when used as a sander due to its design and the nature of grain.

 

I totally disagree with that statement.  What do you use the ROS for if not to sand? After years and years of IN-Line sanders and belt sanders ,and trying to sand out the sanding marks by hand, the ROS was a real boon to woodworkers. I have used them all, and give me a ROS any day.

Herb

Totally agree WBBN. But I have to try this after seeing it in person. If I can duplicate and get the same effect I'll have another notch....of course this wouldn't be done on shop stuff, not anything I've made yet. I do have a hanging tool cabinet to make using maple that it would look gorgeous on though. Just saying...I've watched the Neil video and see his point on bringing out the details. Definitely an interesting process to try. I'd need to practice on some scrap of course.

1 minute ago, sreilly24590 said:

But I have to try this after seeing it in person.

 

 

Post your results, the pro's an con's.  Will be interesting to see how it comes out when someone gives it a try in the field.  

3 minutes ago, Dadio said:

 

 

I totally disagree with that statement.  What do you use the ROS for if not to sand? After years and years of IN-Line sanders and belt sanders ,and trying to sand out the sanding marks by hand, the ROS was a real boon to woodworkers. I have used them all, and give me a ROS any day.

Herb

I certainly can't argue with that at all. Just repeating what I saw and heard. There was no comparisons done so I take it as personal preference but worth the test to see what the difference would be. And then again I guess you can certainly get carried away with detail. How far is far enough?  Personally I have 2 ROS and have been considering a 3rd. As I have seen and heard when it comes to woodworking many things are personal preferences. Like dovetails, machine cut, hand cut, or jig based. They all, if done properly look and work great.

23 hours ago, HandyDan said:

 I don't worry too much about appearance. 

 

or at all...

and why use up time and resources...

save and use them someplace else...

7 minutes ago, Stick486 said:

 

or at all...

and why use up time and resources...

save and use them someplace else...

Me either,pic of my shop,

Herb

 

34 minutes ago, Dadio said:

I totally disagree with that statement.  What do you use the ROS for if not to sand? After years and years of IN-Line sanders and belt sanders ,and trying to sand out the sanding marks by hand, the ROS was a real boon to woodworkers. I have used them all, and give me a ROS any day.

Herb

 

I totally agree w/ you Herb..  AND THEN SOME!!!

and make it a VS/VO...

 

as you sand w/ an inline, do you not move it cross grain??? so much for NOT cross grain scratching...

an inline sure can tear up the cross grain...

Bill Bush seem to be talking all theory and not IRL or he doesn't know how to use an ROS or does so poorly and blames the ROS...

Edited March 24, 20197 yr by Stick486

2 minutes ago, Dadio said:

Me either, pic of my shop,

Herb

 

I like it and can relate...

more like home than a show case...

save the analliticalisms and OCD's for the projects...