The latest chapter.  (BTW, I had spinal surgery yesterday and "avoid strenuous activity for 6-8 weeks.  All my Xmas projects are done, so you might see more of my posts here).

 

Why do people think dowels, dominos, or biscuits are necessary for edge-to-edge glue ups.  I can understand some assistance in alignment when needed but there  are other ways.  Dowels, in particular are fussy with alignment and don't add strength.

 

Dowel joints are not very strong.  I read a FWW article years ago about why.  Boiled down to two reasons: minimal glue surface, most of which is end grain and differential expansion of wood.   I have reglued dozens of chairs where once I removed the corner blocks, the pieces just pull apart.

 

Why is a miter saw on the top list of things for a newbie?  Unless you are doing construction or on site work, you can do most anything with a table saw.   And it has limited types of cuts it will make.

 

Unless you do a lot with sheet goods or live edge planks, ditto for a track saw.

 

Why do people put so much glue on that there are puddles of it running out once clamped.

so, if "Biscuits are for alignment only, and don't add any strength" how are the 50 or so bookcases I've built using only biscuits on the "butt and biscuit joint" still standing 30 years later?

 

 

35 minutes ago, kmealy said:

BTW, I had spinal surgery yesterday and "avoid strenuous activity for 6-8 weeks

Praying for a complete and swift recovery. 

Edge to edge glue-ups?    Never used dowel or dominos or English muffins but have used a router cut zig-zag joint between boards. Added surface area for glue.  Interlock for surface alignment.  I do rely on my Bosch Glide compound miter saw for cross cuts mainly because it is already set up for that job.  If in my garage shop I prefer using my ancient craftsman radial arm saw for 90 degree cuts across boards up to 16" inch wide. If the board is on my CNC for some work then I'll use it to cut the board to final length if it needs to be.  

 

I'll add another prayer for complete recovery.  

My list of “Things I don't understand” is much longer then yours 

As for 

4 hours ago, kmealy said:

Why do people think dowels, dominos, or biscuits are necessary for edge-to-edge glue ups

In my early years I was very much guilty of this, I think it went back to my 9th grade shop teacher who insisted all glue joints need a dowel. 
 

Best of luck to for a speedy full recovery, another prayer sent out. 

* Tired of seeing "Domino Killers."   Maybe when the patent expires, there will be some that don't just use a lever moving a router or a drill.

5 hours ago, kmealy said:

I had spinal surgery yesterday and "avoid strenuous activity for 6-8 weeks

Prayers for a rapid and full recovery. BTDT; wasn't a pleasant experience.

Do you really want answers, or is this along the lines of me wondering why drivers camp out in the left lane of our local lightly used highways?

Best wishes for a quick and easy recovery from surgery!

 

I won't offer any thoughts on dowels.  People use them, I don't.  If those people don't bug me about why I bother to make a sprung joint, I won't bother them about the dowels.

 

Miter saws are a bit easier to use than a tablesaw for narrow crosscuts.  They often do a worse job of it, but they are easier to use.  Jobsite carpenter or not, odds of having to quickly cut a few 2x4's for some task or another are high with newbies as with all other woodworkers, so I get wanting the miter saw.

 

Can't help on the track saw since I do enough sheet cutting to make it a huge improvement.  It was my ex's favorite tool, good thing she didn't want it.... maybe I should upgrade and give it to her (we still get along fine)  

 

The big puddles of glue are from not knowing how much is actually necessary - they figure too much is better than too little.  Lots of not so great sources of info out there too....

2 minutes ago, JWD said:

Do you really want answers, or is this along the lines of me wondering why drivers camp out in the left lane of our local lightly used highways?

Personally I now stay away from biscuts and other methods.  Joint then Thickness plan your boards.

The take our your trusty long plane and get the bumps out from the TP and J.

Then set up same height jointed boards about 3" H and covered in packing tap.

Then lay out your boards ensuring you have a tight fit.

If not try turning it over as the jointer not set to perfectly 90 can use the compliment angle if your turn the board over.

Put glue on one of the edges only.

Put them together hand tight.

Put on more alignment boards directly over the ones underneath.

Then clamp them down so that they align.  Normally 1 pair per foot.

Then once clamped in vertical fashion ad your horizontal clamps they generate so much force they will overcome the vertical boards.

Then they should be aligned and clamped across the glue up just let it dry for an hour.

Then go back with a scraper and remove the drips or runs be sure to make your alignment boards all the same height so that you can turn it over when wet to check your alignment. 

Leave clamped for 8 hours then do not plain for another 24.  

Then if it it fit in the TP take just enough to clean up the surface.  

Turn it over and again just enough to clean up the surface.

If it is too wide mount it on your work bench and get out your jointer plane then work the surface clean.

The above method has worked for me with out fail for years.

OH end grain alignment some say put alternate growth rings.  

Never has my table once warped and I normally align the jointed edges as described above.

 

I built this table in 2010 and have used it most every day and it was constructed with glue only.  No metal fasteners, no dowels, no biscuits, etc.   I use it as a dining table while watching TV.  The top is Corian. 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 23, 20241 yr by HandyDan

Hope your recovery is going well.

On 11/21/2024 at 12:35 PM, kmealy said:

(BTW, I had spinal surgery yesterday and "avoid strenuous activity for 6-8 weeks. 

Be careful, Keith. Since "the head-bone is connected to the back-bone", too many heavy thoughts may constitute "strenuous activity"!

But seriously, praying for a speedy and total recovery.

Just to be clear, the surgery was an implanted "spinal cord stimulator".   It's essentially a wire inserted into the spine with a control unit and a battery.  It's supposed to alleviate the chronic pain I've had in my knee for several years.  I had a test version about a month ago and just got the permanent one.  I am now officially a "bionic man."   Hoping it works.

 

On a work note, I ordered several things from Rockler to use the gift card I got recently.  The clamps came last week and the second half of the order that was supposed to be some fine knobs and velcro straps came and it was three vent covers.  Ugh.

Edited November 24, 20241 yr by kmealy

Let’s start with one.

 

Biscuits….After Norm Abram showed everybody in the world watching how great they were, everybody bought one. Now like Bessey k-body clamps , some had to buy a Lamello for high dollar. After his show showing op how they telegraphed after awhile, it quickly died with hobby woodworkers and the used sales  were.on,..I have mine and use it.

 

Many woodworkers use it for alignment. I don’t , but I’ve been glueing boards together since 83 and I’m pretty use to it, plus I know how to us3 a belt sander which many fear like a rattlesnake …

The college I taught at bought into the Biscuit and Lamello trend.  Not my money so I didn't' care.  The Lamello we used for knock-down/quick assembly projects but charged the students for each one they used.  I have a Porter Cable biscuit slot cutter, bought specifically for the crew building my rear 2-level deck.  The plastic/composite deck system used a plastic spacer between the boards.  The deck only has screws visible on the first row, and those biscuit shaped spacers slip into slots and let you screw through them to hold down the boards.

Before going through two remodels the furniture class shop had a shaper set up with a ripple edge bit for gluing up wide boards from narrow stock. Solved every problem that the biscuit jointer was designed to solve.  Of course our creative students found several unconventional applications for the biscuit jointer.

4D

 

Edited January 12, 20251 yr by 4DThinker

On 11/21/2024 at 11:53 AM, kmealy said:

so, if "Biscuits are for alignment only, and don't add any strength" how are the 50 or so bookcases I've built using only biscuits on the "butt and biscuit joint" still standing 30 years later?

Biscuits are compressed and designed to swell up in the slot once wet with glue.  Makes for a connection a bit harder to knock apart than a simple 90 degree butt joint would be.  Helps that book cases are static designs, and don't usually suffer the dynamic forces that a chair will encounter. Hard to shear apart a biscuit under the load stress of books. 

I've used biscuits in the past, they are ok for some things but by no means required for anything.  If I made a lot of face frame cabinets I would probably use them for the rough alignment needed when putting a large frame on a large box with dividers.  But the last few times I installed cabinets we bought pre-made boxes and just built up what was needed from what was available.  Can't argue with how quick it went.

 

Anyway, my biscuit jointer was a pretty old one I got used.  Either sold it back to the same place I got it (Kent's if Gene is looking in) or gave it to the Re-Store, don't remember which as it was 20 years or more ago.  Never felt the need for another.

 

They are handy for cutting slots for Z fasteners, I'll give them that too!

Biscuits have a +or - usage. Some have sold and moved on and some still have and found the benefit. 
 

#1.. I used mine to cut the door jambs so I could slip the 3/4 hardwood floors I was installing.

 

#2…I put a board under it and used it to cut all around three sides , then taking a block as a wedge to cut the rest with a hand saw and cut and knock a replacement board under neat caulked and painted.  This replaced rot at the bottom of my porch post to my stairs.

Edited January 12, 20251 yr by BillyJack

Never messed with biscuits or dominoes but I do like dowels for mitered corners, not for alignment but to help hold it together, especially cabinet doors. The way I see it, the glued surface of the dowel is along it’s side grain and the side of the hole it’s in. So once the joint is glued together your using the tensile strength of the dowels as insurance to keep the miters tight and the door from racking in case a little kid wants to swing on it.