8 hours ago, kmealy said:

Just read that the Domino patent(s) expires later this year

 

 

That will be good news for a lot of folks.

don't know why the preview is not showing up

 

another, simpler, version of Tamar's jig and very much like my hand-hold jig that was featured in Wood Magazine a couple years ago.

 

55 minutes ago, kmealy said:

don't know why the preview is not showing up

Keith, this must be a bug, I'll look into is, this is not the first time right?

I figured it out @kmealy, it was one of our Third Party apps, we are in the process of working it out, for now though I disabled the app and it seems to work now.

38 minutes ago, John Morris said:

Keith, this must be a bug, I'll look into is, this is not the first time right?

No, not the first time.  It shows up while I'm creating the post (and also if I "edit" it), but never shows up once I do the save.

 

I've used loose tenons on a few projects, and found making the slots/mortises was simple to cut on my router table with an adjustable fence.  Less work than making a dedicated jig to use with a bushing in a hand held router. Stop/start easy to set with a piece of masking tape and a couple pencil parks.  If the pieces were shorter than the router table bed length and I had several to make I'd clamp a stop block or two down to limit the travel of the part.  I made 30 copies of a cruder version of this model stand and the feet were joined to the vertical legs with a floating tenon.   The mass produce ones were from 3" wide strips of 3/4" BB plywood and a door hinge at the top. A flock of 4 shown below.  This oak version I made for myself.  3/8" diameter steel pins connect the shelf to the legs. 

 

4D

Something to keep in mind with any m/t joint:  the wracking or rotational strength comes from the shoulders of the two joined pieces, not the tenon.  The tenon keeps the shoulders tightly joined, which in turn provides torsion strength.  [Why you ask?  Torsion strength is a function of the radius arm of the stress; the joined pieces are always larger than the tenon, so the available strength from the shoulders is generally much greater.]

On 7/25/2024 at 2:09 PM, kmealy said:

No, not the first time.  It shows up while I'm creating the post (and also if I "edit" it), but never shows up once I do the save.

 

Issue has been fixed, thanks for discovering the bug Keith.

20 hours ago, PeteM said:

Something to keep in mind with any m/t joint:  the wracking or rotational strength comes from the shoulders of the two joined pieces, not the tenon.  The tenon keeps the shoulders tightly joined, which in turn provides torsion strength.  [Why you ask?  Torsion strength is a function of the radius arm of the stress; the joined pieces are always larger than the tenon, so the available strength from the shoulders is generally much greater.]

 

I would say it is slightly more complex than your description, but that is a very good reminder.  People often forget the importance of the shoulders.  The three things I learned that make for a good tenon are:  proper balance between shoulder width and tenon thickness, sufficient tenon length to hold the shoulders in place, and a snug dry fit of both shoulders and tenon. 

I just wish that folks would stop calling those loose tenons "dominoes"....that's actually the machine. As far as I'm concerned tenons are (or should be) tenons, even if they're loose tenons.

I feel your frustration Fred!  Most of the problems I've seen over the years in day to day life & work come from the inability to use language precisely, and it's just the last straw to see it turn up in our hobbies too!

 

However, playing devil's advocate, I can understand that we all arrive at our own understanding of how language is used to describe the world around us through different sets of experiences.  A new woodworker educating themselves via the internet might not know the details of traditional construction, or the evolution of joinery as new machines are invented. 

 

A domino machine is basically a very specialized router.  Wouldn't it be absurd if in the 1960's (or whenever) we had started referring to loose tenons as "routers"?  That is, of course, pushing this particular language oddity to an absurd extreme, but it kinda sums up your point.  Perhaps a more realistic example is biscuits - which are used with a much more aptly named biscuit joiner.  I can't think of what the official tool company name is for those right now, so prevalent is the commonly used term.

 

I suppose we can hope the the expiration of Festool's patent will bring the vernacular terminology back into more sensible waters.  You and I will probably be long dead and buried before that happens, but it's nice to think that these things self correct!

I prefer my loose tenons not to be loose, and my floating tenon not to float unless they are used in the construction of a boat.  I'll admit confusion about double end tenons and why they aren't called 6 sided tenons while normal tenons on the end of a board could be called 5 sided tenons?    Then of course if you round over the sides they become 1 sided with 2 ends or 3 sided but I can see how that might confuse folks.   Referring them by the number of sides they have might come in useful if you go crazy and make your tenon cross section a triangle or pentagon or hexagon or nonagon shape, etc..  Then trouble shows up when the tenon shape isn't a  normal polygon-ish shape.   

4D

As far as loose tenon definitions are concerned, there is a pretty good definition and simple I may add, at the link provided for tenon

1 hour ago, JWD said:

A domino machine is basically a very specialized router. 
 

 Differences of opinions is why these things happen, I guess. I think of a Domino as a hand held mortising machine.

While I enjoy the occasional discourse about woodworking details, the best communication is always a sketch, not a word.  And sadly the ability to quickly sketch out such details is being lost as computer/tablet use in college and public school design related courses creeps down to the lower grades and replaces art classes with photoshop classes and drafting classes with CAD classes, etc.  

I always kept a sketch pad nearby when I taught knowing that a puzzled look from a student about how something might be done could be changed to bright knowing eyes with a quick sketch.  Some truth in the old saying that a picture is worth 1000 words. 

4D

1 hour ago, 4DThinker said:

And sadly the ability to quickly sketch out such details is being lost as computer/tablet use in college and public school design related courses creeps down to the lower grades and replaces art classes with photoshop classes and drafting classes with CAD classes, etc.  

Up through the 70's into the late 80's was the last of the general shop trade classes here in California. In Junior High through the late 70's for all three years I had two shop classes each semester, a combination of any choice, drafting, woodshop, and metal shop. Same through high school, but with the addition of auto shop.

I credit my drafting class completely for my ability to hand draw good clear and concise notes by hand, I learned lettering, dimension, and scale in that drafting class so long ago, and I hadn't used that skill until my young adult hood when I finally ended up with my final career path in Land Surveying and I remembered to use those junior high school drafting skill and do to this day. My notes are typically impeccable, and my lettering is hand draft quality, I've gotten a leg up at times in my career as a direct result from that class I took 45 yrs ago. Us Land Surveyors still hand draw our field notes, in the field, balancing a field book in one hand, writing with another, and performing survey observations with what's left of my limbs and senses. Good field notes are still done with pride in our profession, and a hundred years from now when the public pulls my notes from our archives while doing research on their property, or a road, or a bridge, they'll see "John C Morris" and my hand all over that field book, and they'll be impressed

6 hours ago, Fred W. Hargis Jr said:

I just wish that folks would stop calling those loose tenons "dominoes"....that's actually the machine. As far as I'm concerned tenons are (or should be) tenons, even if they're loose tenons.

Loose tenons can imply to some people a poor fit.  Some people say floating tenon, that does not imply much better. Two mortise tenons?  Twin mortising? 

 

Now we need to also  coin a retronym term for the old style  tenons, that I've read are called "integral tenons."   Maybe we could call the new ones 
"derivative tenons".   (like if you remember calculus class)

 

As far as dominos, it's sort of like Kleenex, Coke, Band-Aid, Frisbee, Crock Pot, Dumpster, Xerox, etc.

1 hour ago, John Morris said:

Up through the 70's into the late 80's was the last of the general shop trade classes here in California. In Junior High through the late 70's for all three years I had two shop classes each semester, a combination of any choice, drafting, woodshop, and metal shop. Same through high school, but with the addition of auto shop.

I credit my drafting class completely for my ability to hand draw good clear and concise notes by hand, I learned lettering, dimension, and scale in that drafting class so long ago, and I hadn't used that skill until my young adult hood when I finally ended up with my final career path in Land Surveying and I remembered to use those junior high school drafting skill and do to this day. My notes are typically impeccable, and my lettering is hand draft quality, I've gotten a leg up at times in my career as a direct result from that class I took 45 yrs ago. Us Land Surveyors still hand draw our field notes, in the field, balancing a field book in one hand, writing with another, and performing survey observations with what's left of my limbs and senses. Good field notes are still done with pride in our profession, and a hundred years from now when the public pulls my notes from our archives while doing research on their property, or a road, or a bridge, they'll see "John C Morris" and my hand all over that field book, and they'll be impressed

I only had "shop class" in Jr. High, but we did drafting / mechanical drawing, wood, leather, metal, and plastic projects.  When it came to high school,  we were pretty much separated into  "college prep" and "shop guys".  Shop guys largely ended up going to factories (in the area it was one large GM plant, steel mills, things made from steel, or a plant that made wiring for autos).  The girls had more options, college prep,  home ec. and secretarial (typing, shorthand, bookkeeping).  At that time,  the career choices for females were teacher,  nurse, secretary, or housewife.

 

As I have recently mentioned, things are getting frustrating with the theater shop manager.  I sat for an hour last Saturday as he was trying to explain things to the crew.  He's made several dimensional errors because he won't draw things out in a measured drawing.  I spent the morning retrofitting the center platform because he forgot  to allow for the height of the I-beams.   Then he miscalculated the number of I-beams and were short one.  The assistant (me), came to rescue by spacing them at the 19.2..." inch spacing instead of 16 o.c.  The end of last Saturday's session he had to cut out two studs out of  a wall  for P^7 (proper prior planning prevents piss-poor performance).  And the steps up the back, in his words, "Seem a bit too steep."   Meanwhile I sketched up some plans for the picnic tables and those went together with my two person crew without a hitch in about an hour, including making  jig template and finding the wood from the left-over inventory.  I don't want to get too critical though, because I don't want  the job.  I'm going to ask for a T-square for my birthday.

 

Sorry, I digress.

Edited July 29, 20242 yr by kmealy

19 minutes ago, kmealy said:

As far as dominos, it's sort of like Kleenex, Coke, Band-Aid, Frisbee, Crock Pot, Dumpster, Xerox, etc.

 or...."poly".

1 hour ago, John Morris said:

I credit my drafting class completely for my ability to hand draw good clear and concise notes by hand, I learned lettering, dimension, and scale in that drafting class so long ago, and I hadn't used that skill until my young adult hood when I finally ended up with my final career path in Land Surveying and I remembered to use those junior high school drafting skill and do to this day.

One of the Department Heads of the program I taught for was sure that it was calculus that I must have used to figure out and solve joinery challenges for the complex furniture designs the student would come up with. One of her office assistants had been a student of mine and kept her informed of the apparent magic I could do using the CNCs I oversaw in the fab lab.   I didn't have the opportunity to demonstrate to clear up her misperception before she moved on, but it was the drafting skills I learned in high school that were and are my "secret".  Auxiliary plane projection coming in very handy for the compound angle intersections between parts.   

4D