Let's talk loose tenons

[kmealy]

AKA Floating tenons

 

I think owning a Domino would be cool, but my cost per joint would be astronomical.   So consider some alternatives.

 

BeadLock - a few years ago someone gave me the basic and advanced versions with all the sizes and bits.  I've used them for a few things like some barn and cabinet doors.  I call them the "poor man's Domino".   They work fine, but are quite slow.  And you have to buy their tenon stock, or an expensive router bit for each of the three sizes you want to use.   The advanced version has a second set of guides in addition to the drill guides that will hold a chisel square and then you can use your own loose tenons.  Since then Rockler has come out with a version 2.0 of them.  Technically, you could use for loose tenons or traditional tenons.  It's also my backup (only) dowel jig.

 

Domino rip-offs -  From what I've seen these are basically a small jig that holds a router or drill  and routes some holes.  Mixed reviews from the YouTube bloggers.  For example, 

 

Mortise Master -- At the last woodworking club meeting, a local guy who has invented and sells this system came and did a show and tell.  I might not have caught all the intricacies, But it seemed pretty simple and (to me) not worth the price.  https://www.mortisemaster.com/

 

Shop-built router fixture -- I made one of these years ago and have used it a few times.  I took a piece of plywood and added a fence to one edge.  Then using a 3/4" bit, I routed a thru slot parallel to the fence.  Then I glued on a second  piece of plywood perpendicular and right on the inside edge of the slot I just cut.  This allowed me to use a 1/4" or 3/8" straight bit in that router and it would be centered in the slot.  I could clamp on my pieces and route a centered mortise.   Since then, Tamar and 3x3 woodworking came up with a more advanced version that uses Matchfit clamps, that I have since acquired.  An alternate version could be the handhold jig that I did and was featured in a Wood Magazine tips a while back.  Its set up would be similar to what Tamar did for her guide.

 

 

Using just a router -  Glen Huey (AKA the Donut Dude) did a seminar for the club years ago and also did a video while he was at Popular Woodworking.  While he just did it for traditional  mortises, with some adaptations, you could do for loose tenon joinery

 

 

 

Mortising machine -- A friend who was moving to  a retirement village and getting rid of his shop gave me a mortising machine.  It works great, but I don't think there's a way to do the end of boards, so its use is limited to traditional mortising.   

[JWD]

I was a big fan of the multi-router after I worked for a shop that had one.  I even rigged it up once to do mortises in the end of a long top rail on a day bed.  A very handy tool, but very steep on the $$$.  More versatile than the domino I think, but at 3x the price by the time you buy a router to go on the multi....

[PeteM]

I have the Jessem Mortise Mill (2014 model).  I wondered what happened to it since they stopped offering them.  I really like loose tenon joinery:  it's much easier to think out.  The '14 mill is a simpler version of the new one, but appears to employ the same principle:  user's drill bores the hole, the mill handle moves to create the slot.  I note that Jessem has it on their site for $250.  As with most tool concepts, if you are doing t/m every day,  the premium cost of the Domino would be worthwhile.  About the tenons:  structurally, 1/4" is about all the thickness you need since the strength comes from the glue area between wood surfaces, not the thickness of the tenon.  I just used big box "hobby boards", various woods (particularly oak) in different widths, uniformly 1/4" thick.  Square edge tenons in round end mortissi work just fine, so obsessing about losing small surface areas isn't structurally justified.  

[kmealy]

Oh, I forgot, the Pantorouter.  Does loose mortising and much more.  https://www.pantorouter.com/

 

[Fred W. Hargis Jr]

There was a tool called a Mortise Pal available some time back, they stopped production. I had one (worked a little like that Mortise Master shown above) and really liked it, but for some reason over the years I sold it. Since then I've regretted not having it a time or two. But the high cost option almost has to be the Multi Router. I watched David Marks use it all the time on his show and he made it look so easy; but seems like it almost $3K at the time.

[John Morris]

15 hours ago, kmealy said:

Mortising machine -- A friend who was moving to  a retirement village and getting rid of his shop gave me a mortising machine.  It works great, but I don't think there's a way to do the end of boards, so its use is limited to traditional mortising. 

Kieth, where would a mortise be at the end of a board? My brain just aint seeing it right now, at 5:20am.

[Gene Howe]

9 minutes ago, John Morris said:

Kieth, where would a mortise be at the end of a board? My brain just aint seeing it right now, at 5:20am.

And, why?

[John Morris]

6 minutes ago, Gene Howe said:

And, why?

I'm not sure Gene, the only way I could think of is a mortise in the end of a board? As in at the end grain? And that'd be a very poor joint.

[Fred W. Hargis Jr]

If you're doing loose tenons, you mortise both sides of the joint.

[John Morris]

Actually I found a good example.

I don't like this joint, it appears very weak at least in the "Table Apron-to-Leg Joint".

But at the same time, once the table top is installed, the apron joinery is just an afterthought, since the table top will provide anti racking of the apron. So I guess it works ok?

The joint by itself is not a good joint I feel, but used in conjunction with the rest of a build, I think it would be fine.

 

That being said, for the Polygon Frame Joint, I'd lap the joint instead, for the Rail and Stile joint I'd use a traditional Mortise and Tenon joint, for the Table Apron-to-Leg Joint, I'd use a traditional Mortise and Tenon joint.

The loose joinery IMHO gives plenty of opportunity for the boards splitting. But I am sure as with any joint, there is a proper time to use it over other designs, but I feel the examples below are not the best use of loose tenon joinery.

 

[Fred W. Hargis Jr]

John, I've built a couple of workbenches using just that type of joint...and they are (as Scott Phillips would say) rock solid. Since they are workbenches, they do have stretchers at the bottom of the legs, something you would see on some furniture pieces...those stretchers contribute a lot to the rigidity of the table. But those joints have shown no signs of stress after maybe 5 years or so.

Edited July 19, 2024 by Fred W. Hargis Jr

[JWD]

1 hour ago, John Morris said:

Actually I found a good example.

I don't like this joint, it appears very weak at least in the "Table Apron-to-Leg Joint".

But at the same time, once the table top is installed, the apron joinery is just an afterthought, since the table top will provide anti racking of the apron. So I guess it works ok?

The joint by itself is not a good joint I feel, but used in conjunction with the rest of a build, I think it would be fine.

 

That being said, for the Polygon Frame Joint, I'd lap the joint instead, for the Rail and Stile joint I'd use a traditional Mortise and Tenon joint, for the Table Apron-to-Leg Joint, I'd use a traditional Mortise and Tenon joint.

The loose joinery IMHO gives plenty of opportunity for the boards splitting. But I am sure as with any joint, there is a proper time to use it over other designs, but I feel the examples below are not the best use of loose tenon joinery.

 

 

I think this illustrates an important point, namely that one thing we always must consider is that a method may not be the strongest or most ideal, but it may well be good enough.  Example of the table apron joint with a loose tenon - probably not as good as a tradition M-T (I say probably because I don't have the inclination to quantify the statement), but in my opinion also probably good enough, and definitely better than the vast majority of production tables I've seen and occasionally built that use a removable leg and some kind of hardware fixing the leg to the apron.

 

Playing devil's advocate on my statement about loose tenons, I do think it would be very difficult to quantify that a well made and well glued loose tenon joint was deficient compared to a similarly well made traditional M-T joint.  I have two reasons I prefer traditional M-T's, firstly I am somewhat of a traditionalist.  Secondly, I think traditional M-T's are very likely to perform better when not quite as well made and well glued as ideally possible.

 

If faced with the choice of doweling vs loose tenons, I would absolutely opt for loose tenons in almost all circumstances I can think of.

 

Just rambling a bit when I should be working, but I have an insolvable problem at work so the few minute distraction from it was a welcome one!

[John Morris]

20 minutes ago, Fred W. Hargis Jr said:

John, I've built a couple of workbenches using just that type of joint...and they are (as Scott Phillips would say) rock solid. Since they are workbenches, they do have stretchers at the bottom of the legs, something you would see on some furniture pieces...those stretchers contribute a lot to the rigidity of the table. But those joints have shown no signs of stress after maybe 5 years or so.

I agree Fred, as I stated above, alone they are not a good joint, but when incorporated into a piece of furniture or your workbench, reinforced with sheer support, it would be fine I'd imagine.

[John Morris]

21 minutes ago, JWD said:

Just rambling a bit when I should be working, but I have an insolvable problem at work so the few minute distraction from it was a welcome one!

Since I got transferred from the field to the office, I can feel your pain JWD!

[kmealy]

3 hours ago, John Morris said:

Kieth, where would a mortise be at the end of a board? My brain just aint seeing it right now, at 5:20am.

 

 

 

When doing Dominos/loose tenons/floating tenons

[Fred W. Hargis Jr]

Here's another example, I built this drink stand for our daughter and the uprights are held into the upper and lower pieces with loose tenons. I had built a different one for Marie and used integral through tenons on the upper and lower pieces, but this one is a little larger and every bit as stout.

[Cliff]

I love slots and loose tenons. I built a slot mortiser some 10 or more years ago, and it is still bulletproof today.

It tilts for angles.
I make the tenon stock in the table saw and finish it in the planet and or drum sander.
The rig also works as a horizontal milling machine. It has stops in all directions of travel.

While  lots of folks will turn up their noses at this as excessive,   I can work to repeatable  precision  closer than 0.005" TIR with ease.

 

[kmealy]

2 hours ago, Cliff said:

I love slots and loose tenons. I built a slot mortiser some 10 or more years ago, and it is still bulletproof today.

 

This is nice and I can see how  it  would be useful.  One limitation is it can't do the middle of a board like on Fred's table.

[Cliff]

2 hours ago, kmealy said:

One limitation is it can't do the middle of a board like on Fred's table.

Yes it can,  Does a great job~!!!  Doesn't matter the length of the board.  Even a very wide board that  covers the table can be clamped with C Clamps 

If I have to, I can lock the table and remove the tall handle 

Edited July 19, 2024 by Cliff

[kmealy]

Just read that the Domino patent(s) expires later this year