3 hours ago, PostalTom said:

I can see the possibility of what happened to your friend Ray.

 

when hit the floor screaming and flopping he absolutely scared the snot out of everybuddy...

we were clueless as to what happened and not the slightest idea as what to do...

when he passed out and threw up all of us got real worried...

needless to say we couldn't tell the paramedics anything...

YIKES...

hope to never go through that again...

So... was this in a home shop or an industrial environment?

16 minutes ago, PostalTom said:

So... was this in a home shop or an industrial environment?

 

home..

That must have been really intense!

6 minutes ago, PostalTom said:

That must have been really intense!

 

that's put it mildly...

all because of a static shock off of a PVC system...

 

Please note there is also a warning on microwave ovens about pacemakers. The point of all this is if you have implants or medical devices a consultation with your equipment provider or MD is warranted before use of machinery or electronic devises. Note that includes shortwave radios. 

    Yes there are many things that can go wrong and those may cause your death but in the cases where you do not have any of those conditions it is unlikely to cause a problem. On the other hand IF You do have those conditions then it is buyer beware and plan for the consequences.

8 hours ago, Gerald said:

there are many things that can go wrong and those may cause your death but in the cases where you do not have any of those conditions it is unlikely to cause a problem.

 

let's not forget to consider all others that visit your shop...

Asteroids do hit the earth, and once in a great while hit someone.  Lottery winners might get hit by lightning.  But it's far more likely  that I die on the freeway because I'm momentarily distracted.  Or someone else is.  Exotic accidents do happen, but if you run your life by such fears...don't bother getting up in the morning.  Just lie there and cower.

Industrial exhaust protections are used because the variety of conditions and longevity of use (often, 24/7) and exposure to non-owner "public" (which includes employees) dictate a statistical threat against often-numerous casualties.  It's not nice to let your flour mill explode.  Or that plant in Texas.  Just not neighborly.

But the small shop operator doesn't load the situation with high potentials for atmospheric accident.  The modest window fan should actually lower the chance of fire/accident by diluting the flammables (including any gas evaporating from that can).  Plenty of fresh air means you don't reach the LFL.  I have almost 50 years of doing design/install of exhaust systems, and the floor fan I put at one end of the garage is a dead ringer for David's! 

That panel truck on the freeway driven by some kid whose documentation is .... hazy.... is what concerns me.  My table saw still scares me:  that's what makes it safer than my car.

Why not turn the fan around so that it is blowing into the shop?  That way only fresh outside air goes through the motor.

That's not near as efficient at removing the fumes quickly.  I understand the principle and reasoning but that would cause the vapors to remain even longer and I think that would be worse.  Getting rid of the odor quickly so it doesn't waft into the house where Sandy will have to endure it is paramount for me.  I like it the way it is and will keep it this way but I am appreciative for the discussions and suggestions.  As you were...

 

David

2 hours ago, PeteM said:

But the small shop operator doesn't load the situation with high potentials for atmospheric accident. 

 

 a spill will take care of that issue...

While it is invariably true that the quantum of flammable material , particle size,  and oxygen content are all important when one wants to calculate the possibility of a fire hazard in a DC or exhaust system.  And while those factors are  almost entirely impossible to achieve in a one man shop

 

WHILE ALL THAT

 

There are other issues we would be extremely foolish to ignore. The Insurance Agreement. The terms of the policy.

 

If  there is a fire, AND if the insurance adjuster can find a way to say it originated or  was made worse by the presence of any of these circumstances we are discussing in this thread; The insurance company can easily issue a DENIAL OF CLAIM result against the policy because  as per the written agreement the home owner created a prohibited ( by contract) excessive rick of a fire.

 

This is really  a problem that  so very many people fail to consider.  It doesn't matter what the math says, what the engineering says it REALLY matters what the CONTRACT says. 

 

The home owner's insurance has exclusions on it and  unless you have spent some time discussing it with your agent, you may not know.  The things we do may (or not) violate the terms of the insurance and  void the insurance and all the while we might be unaware of these things.

 

For example:

  A plastic DC will violate every single homeowner's insurance policy that  I know of.  Maybe not yours. Maybe you have it in black and white.  Maybe not.  But if you don't know  - - well then you just don't know.

Can you cure it with a metal ground strap pr a wire in the Ducts?  Probably not because the insurance company won't have contemplated  those things as creating an exception.

You know that clause in your homeowner's policy that prohibits us from storing fuel cans in the structure?  Yah  that.  If they can say that the  fuel cans started the fire or caused it to become  worse, they can deny the claim.

 

And then there issues at law.  Did you know that if you are breaking the law and the insurance company  determines that the law violation was why the fore started that they will DENY THE CLAIM?   Is it unlawful in your state to discharge  certain fumes or dust  from a structure?    It may be.   Some states have filtration requirements. 

 

So while it is tempting to get lost in the weeds of how much fuel in a fan housing may nor not   yadda yadda yadda   there are other considerations that may be going  unnoticed that hold catastrophic potential.

 

I have made these statements in other forums and usually it angers people quite a lot and they focus that anger at me.

HEY  I'm just the piano player.  I didn't write the music.

 

56 minutes ago, Cliff said:

HEY  I'm just the piano player.  I didn't write the music.

what a passel of what ifs...

I'm taking this to another forum that has this topic in play..

@difalkner, you've been incredibly patient with us here.

Sorry guys, but the push back on this setup is getting quite ridiculous.

I have two dogs, they walk through my shop all the time, so what if I carry a bucket of soap and water through my shop, my dogs run through as they do, they trip me up, I spill the soap on the shop floor, and my neighbor walks in at the same moment, he slips and whacks his head on the edge of the table saw and he dies instantly. WHAT IF!!!!

Sorry, but that is what this all sounding like, from an observer who just entered this topic.

 

John I also think the what ifs are way too large. No spark in a home shop from static has ever been proven to start a fire. As to the insurance most areas do not have investigators who could even remotely determine these things, they deal in flammables yes the other items I doubt could be proven. SOOOO i will concentrate on the realities of working (oh no having fun) in the shop.

2 hours ago, John Morris said:

@difalkner, you've been incredibly patient with us here.

No problem, John.  Nobody here has bothered or offended me because I choose not to be offended or bothered.  I have found the discussions interesting, occasionally far reaching, and in the end the fan mount is an improvement relative to what I had and will stay as is until it stops working or I blow up NW Louisiana, whichever comes first.

 

I appreciate the fact that I can participate here - thanks for running a great forum!

 

David

Edited April 29, 20188 yr by difalkner

4 hours ago, Stick486 said:

what a passel of what ifs... 

I don't know about that.  It's not a "what if"  to consider that an insurance company is  going to do their level best to avoid paying on a claim and that the adjusters are going to lay blame on anything they can if it will get their employers off the hook.

I told ya, I'm just the piano player.  Granted, it's what I went to school for. But I'm just the piano player

 

1.  Everything is OK until something happens to prove it actually wasn't.

 

How true.  Would really hate to have the conversation with my insurance agent, or even worse my wife, where I tell them "I did not think that could happen".   That never makes for a good day.....

What Cliff has posted is very true and I have gone through this.

 

I had turned my garage into a shop, and in Feb.2012 at 11:00 PM we had a lightening storm, and there was a power surge that fried my elec. panel. It was an old 60 amp Zinsco panel W/O a main breaker that was never updated located in the garage.

The fire Dept. inspector stated it as the cause of the fire,and the state elec.inspector arrived and confirmed it.

 

The garage was completely gone and the fire burned into the house and up the gable end of the house to the attic vent then above the ceiling to the other end and out of the attic.

The firemen pumped water into the attic of the second floor and of course it ran all the way down through the house ruining everything.

 

The Insurance Co. would not cover the contents of the shop or tools, wanted to write a small check and walk away.

in fact did not even show up for a week. and my agent just stepped aside and I had to deal direct with the claims dept.

I immediately hired a Public Adjuster the deals in fire damage, the best decision I ever made. He knew the rules and held their nose to the old grind stone.

 

They tried everything that @Cliff said above to get out of covering anything but the minimum. I did recover about half on my tools but maxed out the personal property amount so could not be reimbursed for more.

 

It took a year and a 3 mo. before they completed the rebuild and 5 times what they initially wanted to pay.

A totally brand new 2 story cape cod 5 Br.house from the bare studs up including the Elec., plumbing,heating,windows, siding, roof framing,and roofing,driveway slab, including epoxy floor coating in the garage.

 

They have clauses in their policies, you don't know about that excludes everything,and it takes a professional to sort it all out.

I have riders on my insurance now to cover electronics and tools and guns and art work, these are all excluded normally.

Thanks for bringing this up Cliff.

Herb

 

11 minutes ago, Dadio said:

What Cliff has posted is very true and I have gone through this.

 

I had turned my garage into a shop, and in Feb.2012 at 11:00 PM we had a lightening storm, and there was a power surge that fried my elec. panel. It was an old 60 amp Zinsco panel W/O a main breaker that was never updated located in the garage.

The fire Dept. inspector stated it as the cause of the fire,and the state elec.inspector arrived and confirmed it.

 

The garage was completely gone and the fire burned into the house and up the gable end of the house to the attic vent then above the ceiling to the other end and out of the attic.

The firemen pumped water into the attic of the second floor and of course it ran all the way down through the house ruining everything.

 

The Insurance Co. would not cover the contents of the shop or tools, wanted to write a small check and walk away.

in fact did not even show up for a week. and my agent just stepped aside and I had to deal direct with the claims dept.

I immediately hired a Public Adjuster the deals in fire damage, the best decision I ever made. He knew the rules and held their nose to the old grind stone.

 

They tried everything that @Cliff said above to get out of covering anything but the minimum. I did recover about half on my tools but maxed out the personal property amount so could not be reimbursed for more.

 

It took a year and a 3 mo. before they completed the rebuild and 5 times what they initially wanted to pay.

A totally brand new 2 story cape cod 5 Br.house from the bare studs up including the Elec., plumbing,heating,windows, siding, roof framing,and roofing,driveway slab, including epoxy floor coating in the garage.

 

They have clauses in their policies, you don't know about that excludes everything,and it takes a professional to sort it all out.

I have riders on my insurance now to cover electronics and tools and guns and art work, these are all excluded normally.

Thanks for bringing this up Cliff.

Herb

 

Thanks, Herb!

 

No matter how you feel about the discussion, you have to ask yourself one question. Are you willing to accept the outcome and consequences of YOUR decision?