Woodcrafter question: -> LLC? Product Liability insurance? Both? Neither?

[Woodman]

Lets say I'm vending woodcrafts at the park and mamma lets her kid buy a small wooden tray.  The kid gets a splinter, mamma takes the kid to the emergency room with no insurance, and I get a $14,000 bill.

 

Or mamma steps on it, the dog eats a piece, and mamma gets the dawg a $25,000 operation - then the dowg dies three weeks later.  

 

Do crafters get sued? Are most crafters careful about what they sell because of potential liability?  I'd rather not go into my twilight selling soaps and macramé . . .  

 

 

[lew]

Not a "crafter". The only thing I sell are my rolling pins by orders. Everything else is given away.

 

I gave up my Scuba shop and quit teaching scuba diving for these exact same worries.

[Grandpadave52]

Great discussion topic Jim. Honestly surprised it hasn't been discussed here before.

I'm no help; what little I do make is for family or friend.  It's given away or provided for actual material cost only.

I'll be following the comments. Thanks.

[Fred W. Hargis Jr]

There are a several reasons I have no interest in selling items, liability is one of them...not #1 (or even #2) but it is something to consider.

[DAB]

and another reason there is no profit making business with my name attached (besides the paperwork needed to keep the tax men happy).

 

i've read before that if you sell kid's toys, you are supposed submit a sample to the CPSC (consumer product safety commission) to get the finish evaluated for kid safety, as kids have a habit of putting everything in their mouth.  not to mention the size tests for swallowing/choking.

 

"it's just a set of wooden blocks"

 

yup, with unknown paint, unknown final coat, on unknown wood...you, sir, are in big, big trouble!

 

pass.

 

i don't make stuff for kids.  i barely make stuff for responsible adults.

 

trying to hide behind a legal screen will not stop you being sued.  you may or may not escape an adverse judgement, but now you have to pay $$ to a lawyer up front to build your wall, and then perhaps pay him later to defend yourself.

 

the point of woodworking is it's something i'm good at and something I enjoy.  it is not to make my lawyer rich and me depressed.

[lew]

17 minutes ago, DAB said:

i barely make stuff for responsible adults

You found some of those  

[Gerald]

No insurance no worries. The only child thing I sell is snap tops and those have water base pen colors. Figured I would take it as it comes . None on our club I know of has insurance and that other fellow I don’t know him.

 

[Fred W. Hargis Jr]

38 minutes ago, lew said:

You found some of those  

 I'll bet it was a long, hard search.

[DAB]

some light reading from your dear federal gov't:

 

https://www.cpsc.gov/Business--Manufacturing/Business-Education/Toy-Safety-Business-Guidance-and-Small-Entity-Compliance-Guide

 

 

[DAB]

it's one thing to get sued by an unhappy customer, it's quite another to get charged with a crime by your federal gov't.  pass on both.

[Woodman]

17 hours ago, DAB said:

i don't make stuff for kids.  i barely make stuff for responsible adults.

This is a joke but sums up the issue.  Mom buys a nice tray, the kid gets it, a piece breaks off, etc etc etc . . . 

 

   

[Woodman]

20 hours ago, Fred W. Hargis Jr said:

I have no interest in selling items

Got'cha. I missed that option "I do not sell anything"

 

After posting this I had a 15 minute talk with a guy who sells commercial liability insurance, brother to the guy who has sold me auto/home/business insurance for 30 years.

 

As much as I'm thrilled when someone wants one of my delicate trays for her jewelry or whatever, the whole liability thing might turn into a nightmare.  

 

I've a few designs robust enough to hold up, though.  I'll stick with them if I want to share the beauty of the wood.

 

 

[John Morris]

Woodman, unfortunately I don't have anything to say about this, actually I never thought of it, but what I do want to say is how cool it is you used our "Poll" feature!

[John Morris]

I have been doing some hunting and pecking. From what I have seen product liability is what may be needed for those of us who want to sell our products. It appears the average cost is about 300 to 500 bucks a year.

Another resource to look into, is craft organization memberships that may have liability insurance included in their memberships for folks like us who want to sell our crafts. I landed on one organization in the UK that with their 35 dollars per year membership their members are also covered for general liability issues that arise from the products they sell, seeing this I embarked on a search to see if there is anything like that here in the USA.

 

I found out that The American Craft Council offers insurance coverage for their members, while not included in the membership dues, they do work closely with an insurer who specializes in our needs as small business craftsmen.

Here is their link:

 

Home

WWW.CRAFTCOUNCIL.ORG

---

The American Craft Council is the leading arts nonprofit cultivating a culture of making. Come join us!

 

Look at their membership page, and see the benefits section.

 

Also, with a little hunting a pecking I found that the AAW also offers insurance through a partner of theirs, I know you are not turning items @Woodman, but I'm only using this as an example of some different search methods you could use to find a more suitable insurance method other than the "out in the open market" kind of general insurance.

 

Association Insurance Programs - aaw

WWW.ASSOCIATIONMEMBERSINSURANCE.COM

 

Doing a bit more hunting and pecking, I have found the above listed organizations seem to use the same insurer for their members. So that's what I have found. Perhaps the best approach if you need insurance is to look for industry specific insurance from our craft organizations.

 

Also just a thought, what is the practicality of an injury lawyer going after small craftsmen like us? Where's the money? I would wager lawyers would turn away from any client who wants to sue Woodman because their clients kid grabbed a wooden tray off the counter top and ate it, and had indigestion because of it. There's no money for them. Remember lawyers are paid by percentage, what would that look like after they sued Woodman? Just throwing that out there.

 

Also, even though it may not protect you 100 percent, consider printing up a tag or piece of paper that goes with your craft item, sold "As Is".

I think @Cliff may dabble in the law profession, perhaps he can chime in here as well.

[Woodman]

2 hours ago, John Morris said:

how cool it is you used our "Poll" feature!

That's Woodman being woodman  

 

Forever showing off his technicicail prowesses 

[Cliff]

35 minutes ago, John Morris said:

perhaps he can chime in here as well.

I am a lawyer, retired.  I've taken part in product liability litigation. In general, it is lose lose lose for the manufacturer. The reason? Juries see the sympathetic injured party and they do exactly what you might think they would do ; they take from the rich and give to the poor and  facts and law  are usually tossed out the window. 

 

Example

Utility lineman wanted to change the bend of  utility pole (don't ask).  He went through a slew of measures all of which were forbidden in his effort and he admitted doing them in open court. Eventually the 63,000 pounds of force  in the hydraulics snapped the rope he had tied to the top of the pole.  He had failed to use his harness and admitted to that as well. When the ambulance arrived  to find him laying broken on the ground he was hopelessly paralyzed. His young  softly weeping wife and infant child were in the courtroom through out the entire trial.

The jury returned a verdict against the utility, the truck manufacturer, the lift bucket company, and the rope maker.

 

It is unlikely that your cutting-board will injure someone until that instant when little billy gets carried away and smacks little suzy in the skull with it. Or it skids across the counter  in a pool of grease and  some dummy cuts his or her own finger off.  

Then all bets are off.

 

In law school  you learn about supervening / intervening causation  breaking the chain of causality  this relieving the manufacturer of liability. But if you have been watching the news lately  you see people suing firearms makers  claiming they are liable when some insane person  uses their products to do harm.   I can't count the number of times I've seen all the legal norms, laws, and standards tossed out the window  by sympathetic juries.

 

There aren't you glad you asked?

Edited February 17, 2024 by Cliff

[John Morris]

8 minutes ago, Cliff said:

There aren't you glad you asked?

[Grandpadave52]

To @Cliffs points, many, many years ago, a major farm equipment company who also sells consumer power equipment lost a lawsuit against a consumer who had purchased one of their 21" push mowers. Seems said consumer had his neighbor assist him lift the mower while it was running deciding moving it across the top of their dividing hedge would save them both time trimming the hedge. It's all fun and games until an eye gets put out which is how he  (and his attorneys) won the suit and several million dollars. In addition all owners manuals had to be updated warning against using the mower in this fashion. Common sense is not a legal defense term.

[lew]

[Woodman]

1 hour ago, lew said:

I'd want to see this with Jonathan Winters as the spokesperson . . . 

 

An example of why tort reform is wanted . . . 

 

->  Blitz USA, the bankrupt Oklahoma gasoline can manufacturer

 

David Calder, tried to start a fire in a wood-burning stove in his trailer home by pouring gasoline on the flame.  Blitz lost, in 2010, a Utah jury awarded more than $4 million to the father of a 2-year-old girl killed when a Blitz can exploded.

 

     

 

Does "Sold as-is" protect me against anything?