A wonderful WW experience

[CharlieL]

1 hour ago, It Was Al B said:

 In todays' world, working with your hands has become less inspiring. People would rather sit behind a desk, or go out in the field with a clip board, where salaries are higher. It is harder to make a living as a craftsman, and the number of skilled craftsmen in this country within all of the trades is in serious decline. I believe we are just beginning to experience the results. Unfortunately with woodworking, cheap imports that can "serve the purpose" are putting our craftsmen out of business. Those who can afford true craftsmanship will continue to pay the price for quality, but most people are looking for the lowest cost.

 

It's nice to see someone else that is also honest enough to admit how things really are. 

[Gene Howe]

Now that I'm retired, woodworking is just my hobby. I made money at it for a while. If you really want to make a little money from woodworking, you need to start with a lot of money. 

[HandyDan]

Woodworker, Blacksmith, Auto Gas/Service Station Owner etc.

Automation keeps advancing and taking jobs.  Just ask a member of the UAW.

 

[Wil]

There is certainly a decline in the number of workers entering the trades.   Read a magazine article several months back with contributions from Mike Rowe and Norm Abrahm about this very subject and the challenges of getting the next generation of skilled workers in place.   They called out the looming shortage as the average age of trade workers nears retirement.   Woodworking is only a hobby for me.   I drive a desk each day and am years from retirement, but money was not the deciding factor in my career choice.   I love what I do and would do the same if I had to do it over again.  I do wonder if the technology classes no longer being in schools plays a part.   

[Grandpadave52]

4 hours ago, Wil said:

 I do wonder if the technology classes no longer being in schools plays a part.   

IMHO Wil I believe you are spot on with this observation. For far too long, Educators began painting all HS kids with the same broad brush...you need a 4 year degree to be successful and competitive. Understanding in part their philosophy, however their error is practical common sense is not every HS kid is cut out a conventional college campus.

 

The last 10-12 years of my professional career I "drove a desk (love that analogy) as well. The majority of it was recruiting, interviewing & hiring (both at the H.S. and Community College level) kids to enter manufacturing. I soon learned those kids were ill prepared in many areas; math, basic PC, problem solving, Inter-personal and decision making skills not to mention any type of technical knowledge. I also did New Hire Orientations, then spent another 40-80 to hours in the classroom with them just to teach the basics. Most were like sponges embracing the opportunity to learn something they felt would help them in a career. Many developed a passion for learning and took advantage of many of our in house elective classes and some went a step further using our tuition reimbursement program to continue their educations toward 2 and 4 year degrees.

 

On the other side of the coin, I worked directly with local Community Colleges and a few of our state University's to develop or adapt curriculum needed to for our needs. We partnered with other area manufacturers to develop several apprenticeship programs for skilled trades such as electricians, machine repair, industrial maintenance, utilities as well as Quality, Machining (including CNC Operators & Programmers) and Advanced Assembly Techniques. Working through the State of Indiana (and some other states as well) I obtained local, state and even some Federal grants to off-set the costs. I spent A LOT of time tracking people, $$$'s, progress, etc. "driving my desk." to keep all the plates spinning, but we had some great success stories.

 

I wish I could say it was all perfect, but far from it. Cyclical business climates interrupted the process that led to re-creating the wheel over and over. Some individuals chose to blow the opportunities given them requiring a re-evaluation  of the entry and selection process.

 

Off my soap box now, but it does grind my gears when I hear "the trades are dead or dying." There is NO APP to frame, wire, plumb, roof, lay blocks/concrete work for a house; there is NO APP to repair your car, truck boat, airplane, lawn-mower or snowblower; there is NO APP to operate heavy machinery to build or repair infra-structure; there is NO APP for Hand crafted anything. Certainly there are APPs and technological advances which have changed the landscape and methodology for climbing the tree, but man has and always will use his hands along with his mind to create and build.

 

OK, I'm think I'm done. Time to go take a TIDE pod now! 

Edited January 14, 2018 by Grandpadave52

[Al B]

Locally, our vocational high school has more students trying to get enrolled than the school can handle. The school recently met with several business leaders concerning the need for skilled tradesmen.. The school in now opening full time evening classes for adults, to teach the skills needed for anyone who wishes to take the opportunity . I believe, with the shortage of skilled tradesmen, you may see a move to provide better wages for those skilled in the trades.  Many of the graduates from the trade school  have entered 2 or 4 year college programs, and now operate their own small businesses.  They are hiring trade school graduates because they know the schools' reputation. 

The school has a problem where some parents accuse the school of selective enrollment, based on academic achievement. The school probably has the highest % of students who do graduate, compare to other schools, and has something like 65% of their graduate who do continue on to college. I believe their success is due to what the school does to motivate the students.

Edited January 14, 2018 by It Was Al B

[Gene Howe]

15 minutes ago, It Was Al B said:

Locally, our vocational high school has more students trying to get enrolled than the school can handle. The school recently met with several business leaders concerning the need for skilled tradesmen.. The school in now opening full time evening classes for adults, to teach the skills needed for anyone who wishes to take the opportunity . I believe, with the shortage of skilled tradesmen, you may see a move to provide better wages for those skilled in the trades.  I see many of the graduates from the trade school who have entered 2 or 4 year college programs, and now operate their own small businesses.  They are hiring trade school graduates because they know the schools' reputation. 

The school has a problem where some parents accuse the school of selective enrollment, based on academic achievement. The school probably has the highest % of students who do graduate, compare to other schools, and has something like 65% of their graduate who do continue on to college. I believe their success is due to what the school does to motivate the students.

I'm sure that some C and D students might do well, even excel in a good vocational program. But, shouldn't the school be able to set the criteria for entrance? Especially since they appear to have plenty of applicants. It's just too bad that some students won't get the opportunity. OTOH, that might be motivation for those C and D students to buckle down.  Then there's the evening classes, if they are truly serious.

Edited January 14, 2018 by Gene Howe

[Wil]

Gene - agree with you on the school setting an entrance criteria.   But how long do you think it would take for someone to challenge it due to their feeling that they were "wronged".   Not sure what happened to best man (or woman) for the job.

[HandyDan]

25 minutes ago, Wil said:

Not sure what happened to best man (or woman) for the job.

That's not the way to pick someone for the job.  It creates a hostile environment.  Fair is fair, everyone deserves a chance.  Participation is key here.

 

 

Our local government thinks it is best to remove the following question from job applications.

 

Have you ever been convicted of a felony?           

How can children be raised to be good citizens if they don't need to be?

 

 

 

 

[lew]

On 1/12/2018 at 4:17 PM, p_toad said:

the guy in A Bucket of Blood (1959)

One of my favorites- especially the cat!

 

I've made "bird house" kits for the little ones next door. They are still too young to be around power tools but they can use hand tools. If I'm working outside, they usually show up and I give them "safe" tasks to "help" me. The youngest girl is really quick to pick up on stuff and very mechanically inclined.

 

As for sharing techniques, heck, someone helped me- I pay it forward. Search for "Celtic Knot" rolling pins and see how many you find. You're welcome. 

[Al B]

3 hours ago, Gene Howe said:

I'm sure that some C and D students might do well, even excel in a good vocational program. But, shouldn't the school be able to set the criteria for entrance? Especially since they appear to have plenty of applicants. It's just too bad that some students won't get the opportunity. OTOH, that might be motivation for those C and D students to buckle down.  Then there's the evening classes, if they are truly serious.

Some parents feel that C and D students should have priority with entrance into the vocational school. I believe the school policy is to allow enrollment based on the same scale of student grade averages enrolled in the local conventional high schools.

[Gene Howe]

Our county runs a good  2 yr. vocational program here. A prospective student must have maintained a C Average with no failed classes for the previous 2 years. They must also have a clean disciplinary record and no criminal record. Since they are juvies, I don't know how that's determined. I don't know the percentages but, a good number of the graduates are employed immediately after graduation. Many go on to earn higher degrees. 

 

 

[lew]

11 hours ago, Wil said:

challenges of getting the next generation of skilled workers in place

 

7 hours ago, Grandpadave52 said:

For far too long, Educators began painting all HS kids with the same broad brush...you need a 4 year degree to be successful and competitive. Understanding in part their philosophy, however their error is practical common sense is not every HS kid is cut out a conventional college campus.

 

 

6 hours ago, It Was Al B said:

our vocational high school has more students trying to get enrolled than the school can handle

 

6 hours ago, Gene Howe said:

shouldn't the school be able to set the criteria for entrance? Especially since they appear to have plenty of applicants

This post has entered an area of great passion for me.

 

I was one of those "C" students who came alive in vocational education. My grades went from below average to allowing me the opportunity to be a member of the National Honor Society- the first vocational student at the school to be awarded that membership. Six years after graduation, I became a Vocational Education teacher. In the early 70's vocational education was on the rise. The schools were filled to capacity and kids were on waiting lists. Seniors spent their year on Co-op. Training on the job and then being hired on. Most stayed and made a career with their employer. 

 

There was always a stigma about the Vo-Tech kids. Administrators, some teacher and a lot of kids looked down on these students as being inferior. Yes, many weren't as "book smart" as the academic kids but they had something more important- common sense, manipulative skills and a fierce desire to learn. Vocational enrollment continued high until academic administrators decided to use the vocational courses as dumping grounds for discipline problems. The environment changed and students shied away. Enrollment dropped.

 

Soon after this, the government (state and federal) became involved with "labeling" students. If you couldn't read, couldn't spell, were shy, low income, and a myriad of other reasons- you were labeled and required special assistance. Academic administrator began funneling all labeled students to the vocational schools. Removing kids who scored poorly on standardized test, artificially biased standardized test scores in favor of the academic classes. Administrators love above average scores. Vocational education schools were becoming glorified, expensive special education classes. 

 

As if this wasn't enough, colleges started to campaign academic administrators and school officials to get more graduates into the post high school environment. They convinced everyone that kids couldn't succeed, in life, without a college education; totally ignoring their own statistics of failure/dropout rates and graduate job placement. Too many graduates left with mountains of student debt and no real skills to earn a living. You know what a 4 year liberal arts student says?? "You want fries with that cheeseburger?" 

 

All these factors continued to chip away at vocational education enrollment and per student costs rose dramatically. Many communities, still believing the college hype, closed their vocational schools. Academic graduates who couldn't afford college or weren't college material were left with no skills to make them employable. Employers had to eat the extra costs of training. Communities suffered.

 

Finally, guys like Mike Rowe, a few intelligent academic administrators and business leaders spoke out and were heard. Vocational education is on the rise again. Vocational schools have increasingly more applicants which means they can be more selective- choosing the kids who really want to learn. My school went from a 1500 student enrollment (1970) down to less that 500. Fortunately the community demanded the school continue in operation and most recently enrollment is back up to over 1100 and a waiting list for most classes.

 

As GrandpaDave said- putting my soapbox away...

 

 

[Al B]

I'm hearing you loud and clear Lew. Even today, with the success that the Whittier Vocational Technical High school has had, I still hear people , even relatives in my own family, make damning remarks about Vocational schools. It took a lot of work and convincing by many people to finally get the school under construction. Twelve cities and towns teamed together to build this jewel. Our teachers are all dedicated professionals and the administrators do everything they can to insure that the students get the best education they can, not only in the trades, but academically. Most people around these towns know the value of the vocational school. I don't follow the happenings regularly, but I know the school has budgeted millions to update  and modernize tools and machinery so that the school is in the 21st century and up to date with industry.

Edited January 15, 2018 by It Was Al B

[Grandpadave52]

Spot on Lew! I chose a technical path and education (Automotive & Diesel Mechanics) when I graduated from HS. It nearly infuriated my Guidance Counselor, Principle and a couple of my "Academic Advisers".  That was in 1970-71. While I could succeed in the academic classroom, it wasn't my love or passion. I loved getting my hands dirty. The skills and knowledge I gained during my "first career" got me in the door for my second career.

 

By then I had a more mature understanding of the value of academic learning combined trade skills knowledge and just plain old hard work ethic. I was fortunate within the company I worked for to gain the mentor-ship of some senior managers and if I demonstrated a desire to learn both hands-on and in the classroom they would provide a path and assistance. During the many years "driving a desk" (forgive me @Wil, for stealing your term), I was still the happiest when I was working with my hands & mind. I've truly enjoyed being in the classroom and that special moment when you would see someone with that "a ha!" moment, but the satisfaction that comes with fixing,  building, creating something from your own hands...man that's the best high out there...

 

OK time to garner some beauty rest...not nearly enough hours in the day or night for that to work

18 minutes ago, lew said:

As GrandpaDave said- putting my soapbox away.

I've found taking two of these helps...

[HandyDan]

 

30 minutes ago, Grandpadave52 said:

I've found taking two of these helps...

But so do the kids these days.

 

https://www.bing.com/news/search?q=Tide+Pod+Challenge&qpvt=tide+pod+challenge&FORM=EWRE

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 15, 2018 by HandyDan

[Gene Howe]

Well said, Lew, Al and Dave. 

[HARO50]

On 1/14/2018 at 11:44 PM, Grandpadave52 said:

the satisfaction that comes with fixing,  building, creating something from your own hands...man that's the best high out there...

Couldn't agree more, Gramps! Well.... that and fishing. Never needed any other drugs!

John

[Artie]

On 1/14/2018 at 11:28 PM, It Was Al B said:

I'm hearing you loud and clear Lew. Even today, with the success that the Whittier Vocational Technical High school has had, I still hear people , even relatives in my own family, make damning remarks about Vocational schools. It took a lot of work and convincing by many people to finally get the school under construction. Twelve cities and towns teamed together to build this jewel. Our teachers are all dedicated professionals and the administrators do everything they can to insure that the students get the best education they can, not only in the trades, but academically. Most people around these towns know the value of the vocational school. I don't follow the happenings regularly, but I know the school has budgeted millions to update  and modernize tools and machinery so that the school is in the 21st century and up to date with industry.

Whittier Tech? One of our sworn enemies! I graduated from Northeast Metropolitan Regional Vocational High School in 1978. The school has been renamed Northeast Metrotech, to shorten things. I took electrical shop, and now have my Journeyman’s, and Masters License in Ma., and my Journeymans in NH.  The town I am employed by is a very well off, self entitled town, which has the teachers telling the students (highschool level) that if they don’t go to college they are failures. My personal philosphy is there are 4 types of people in the world. 1-academic/paper/booksmart 2-mechanical/hardware/physical smart 3-both 4-neither. My father went to college, he needed to, because everytime he picked up a tool he was a danger to himself, and anyone around (I loved him, and if he was still here with us, we’d be laughing so hard we would cry, about some of his tool experiences). I went to the voke school because financially college was out of the question. A decison I had to make at the age of 13. If you go to MIT for engineering, or Harvard for business or law, well I reckon you’re gonna do just fine financially, workwise. You spend $125,000 for a business or marketing, or management degree, well even Warren Buffet states your money could do better for you as a downpayment on a tripledecker/rental property. Exceptions to every rule, but I’m no longer surprised by the number of college grads, my age, that I outearn. They on the other hand are stunned by the fact that I outearn them, based sole on they went to college, and I went to a voke school.Different people, different abilities. Should have the right to maximize THEIR abilities, not what a schoolsystem wants to impose. Currently in Massachusetts, to graduate highschool, you have to pass a MCAS test. If you attend a vocational school, you still need to pass the MCAS to get a highschool diploma. In a vocational school, every other week is a shop week, you are in your respective shop for the whole week, soph to senior year, The alternate weeks are academic weeks, in which all your standard education classes are held, plus an academic class related to the book/code/etc needs of the trade you are in. So to pass the MCAS test you have slightly LESS than 1/2 of the classrooom time the regular school students get to learn how to pass the test, with NO credit given for any of your vocational learning you have done. College is an excellent choice for many students, but certainly not for all. My science teacher in highschool (also my track coach), hired me to do some side work for him, shortly after I got my license. He had a nice chess set in his house, after work one day I asked him for a game, he declined. When I asked why, he said it wouldn’t be fair (actually he said a challenge, but I’m being nice). I got his wife (who worked with my Mother at the local hospital) to help me talk hin into it. We played 12 games over the next month. I won 8, he won 3, and we stalemated once. He stopped playing me after that. Am I a genius? Well everyone who knows me, knows that’s not true. Am I smarter than him? Well yeah! in SOME areas! Not in others. There are a lot of people who can succeed in either side of this, but also a lot who need to stick with one side or the other. I want my doctor to be a college genius, I want the person fixing my car to be a mechanical genius. Both geniuses, different sides (for lack of a better term). Massachusetts needs to do a better job with our vocational schools/students. (Have I exceeded the maximum number of rants for a newcomer?) It’s an issue I’m personally involved with, so I run hot on it. I deeply apologize if this offended anyone, because that was not one of aims in posting this

[HARO50]

1 hour ago, Artie said:

I deeply apologize if this offended anyone,

Didn't offend ME! Rather well put, I thought.

John