4 hours ago, It Was Al B said:

I'm glad you didn't do that Herb. I hate lawyers 

 I'm an attorney. You don't hate me do you?

 

1 minute ago, Cliff said:

 I'm an attorney. You don't hate me do you?

 

Ah OH...Al's gonna get in trouble now...better go pick the "switch" off the tree and get it over with Al. 

For the record...I'm OK with it Cliff.

2 hours ago, Steve Krumanaker said:

A woodworker can take a $2500.00 table saw, a $75.00 square, an $800.00 jointer and/or planer and  a few hundred dollars worth of clamps and under ideal conditions make a 12" x 12" box to within 1/32" of square.

A carpenter can take a $25.00 tape measure and a piece of string while working in the mud and layout a 200' X 200' foundation to within 1/4" of square.

A woodworker can make a chest of drawers that will hold  socks and underwear.

A carpenter can build a concrete form that will contain and restrain several tons of concrete, the goods one will make the forms easy to remove after the concrete is cured.

A woodworker will find a mistake in a ten dollar plan and whine about it.

A carpenter is responsible for finding and fixing mistakes in blueprints that span dozens of pages, addendums, and revisions compiled by a team of architects making thousands of dollars a year more than a "mere" carpenter.

A formally trained carpenter will understand load, will be comfortable computing volume measurements, rise and run, he will understand degrees, minutes, and seconds. A formally trained carpenter will have a working knowledge of general math, geometry, and trigonometry. He will understand grade, feet and tenths, elevations, blue prints, not just framing but also from the mechanical, electrical, and stone trades. More than likely when a person sees a large construction project, a carpenter, or former carpenter will be in charge.

 

Steve

 

I agree with you Steve in almost all of what you said. In my experience of doing site work, not many carpenters that I have worked with understand feet and tenths, even with a dual tape. They only understand feet and inches

6 hours ago, Chips N Dust said:

I agree with you Steve in almost all of what you said. In my experience of doing site work, not many carpenters that I have worked with understand feet and tenths, even with a dual tape. They only understand feet and inches

 

Admittedly, I have run into that, but mostly on, and not trying to start a different discussion here, non-union crews, or with carpenters who bought their cards. Most card carrying journeyman carpenters will have served an apprenticeship, which is what I'm referring to when I say "formally trained". They will have had classes on, and will have been tested on doing site work and using a Philadelphia stick. I had a good friend, who was a good carpenter,  who bought his card and he just never could separate feet and tenths from metric. Tried to explain it over and over, finally just decided I wasn't a good enough teacher.  

I think it's important to make a distinction here between carpenters and framers, or carpenters and dry wallers, or carpenters and roofers, etc etc. So many who are in construction and call themselves carpenters have only ever been exposed to one aspect of the trade. Not to say they aren't good at what they do, a dedicated framer or roofer is bound to be better at his specialty than someone who "does it all" but IMO, they aren't really carpenters.

 

Steve

9 hours ago, Grandpadave52 said:

@Steve Krumanaker Well when you put it that way...you're right!  Excellent perspective!

+2...

Whatever context Ralph was asking the question in, hopefully he'll be back with his version of an answer. I do enjoy his brain challenges!

I'm anxiously awaiting your explanation of the difference between a trade and a profession.

Nick,

I say that Kmealy summed it pretty along with Stick and John.

41 minutes ago, Steve Krumanaker said:

 

Admittedly, I have run into that, but mostly on, and not trying to start a different discussion here, non-union crews, or with carpenters who bought their cards. Most card carrying journeyman carpenters will have served an apprenticeship, which is what I'm referring to when I say "formally trained". They will have had classes on, and will have been tested on doing site work and using a Philadelphia stick. I had a good friend, who was a good carpenter,  who bought his card and he just never could separate feet and tenths from metric. Tried to explain it over and over, finally just decided I wasn't a good enough teacher.  

I think it's important to make a distinction here between carpenters and framers, or carpenters and dry wallers, or carpenters and roofers, etc etc. So many who are in construction and call themselves carpenters have only ever been exposed to one aspect of the trade. Not to say they aren't good at what they do, a dedicated framer or roofer is bound to be better at his specialty than someone who "does it all" but IMO, they aren't really carpenters.

 

Steve

 

Steve, it must be a regional thing because the carpenters you speak of are few and far between in any of the jobs I am on. Rarely can I find a carpenter on any of my jobs who can run a level, transfer grades, layout with out my help, read US Foot measurements and degrees decimals and seconds. Nor can I find a carpenter that can perform relatively simple math for transferring grades and most definitely not, can they be involved in more complex calculations that involve trig or volumes etc. Nor can they transfer grades effectively from one location to another using a level and rod. By the way, the Philly rod is not used at all for transferring grades, it's too cumbersome, the Lenker rod is more widely used and simpler to read, yet even at that, it's rare to find a carpenter running their own grades anymore.

 

I am amazed at the questions I am asked daily on the ground, I spend a lot of time with our rolled set of planes on the hood of my truck trying to explain to our carpenters what I just laid out, and how they are supposed to build it. These are union carpenters, all our carpenters are. Most of our bridge and highway jobs are funded by prop. funding and the feds, and the requirement to step foot on our jobs is to be a union carpenter, union iron worker, union pipe fitter etc etc.

 

Years ago we could give a carpenter a control line for them to layout a structure, nowadays a few control lines to lay out bridge abutments have turned into laying out every footing corner, every bearing pad, and every step in the footings. They can not square up off of a few control lines anymore, they need me to square it up for them. That's not to say the carpenters you describe are not out there, I have run into them, and typically they are over the age of 60 and ready to retire.

 

What you did expose here is truly a different more robust type of carpenter who participates in the large structural projects, and that is an important separation and in a context I don't think most were even thinking here in this topic, I applaud that!

But, from where I stand, I can only dream of that ideal carpenter that you described where I am building roads and bridges in good ol Southern CA. There are not that many. But I do hope you all have them out where you are at, it gives me hope.

John, I have to be honest here, I left the trade in 1994 to pursue a better opportunity. I was fortunate in my time as a union carpenter to have worked and learned from some very good carpenters. Many of them were older with years of experience. Hard for me to swallow but 1994 was quite a long time ago and much can change in a short time. I suppose what I remember may not be the way things are now. I'm not familiar with a lenker rod, when I was active the philly stick(not to be confused with the philly steak) was standard equipment. I will also say that even when I was in the trade, there were carpenters who were very good at site work, form work, etc. etc. Often, they weren't all that great at finish work, and vice versa.

 

Steve

 

 

1 minute ago, Steve Krumanaker said:

John, I have to be honest here, I left the trade in 1994 to pursue a better opportunity. I was fortunate in my time as a union carpenter to have worked and learned from some very good carpenters. Many of them were older with years of experience. Hard for me to swallow but 1994 was quite a long time ago and much can change in a short time. I suppose what I remember may not be the way things are now. I'm not familiar with a lenker rod, when I was active the philly stick(not to be confused with the philly steak) was standard equipment. I will also say that even when I was in the trade, there were carpenters who were very good at site work, form work, etc. etc. Often, they weren't all that great at finish work, and vice versa.

 

Steve

1994 is a looooong time ago in this industry Steve!

Too read your carpenter description above, I kind of had the feeling you were talking about a bygone era, thanks for clarifying that! And you are absolutely correct, it all fits, the Philly rod was used up through the time you were in, but it is more of a complex rod that can require relatively more complex math to make it work correctly, as opposed to the Lenker rod that is a direct read rod, no subtraction, no addition, it's direct read after coming off your benchmark, and quicker to roll with. But it all makes sense, because Lord forbid these guys have to think, like you did when you were in, it's a different world Mr. Steve, you would not be happy with the men you work with today on a structures job.

50 minutes ago, Fred W. Hargis, Jr said:

I'm anxiously awaiting your explanation of the difference between a trade and a profession.

Coming up! Off to work now, see yall tonight!

1 hour ago, Fred W. Hargis, Jr said:

difference between a trade and a profession.

barter or pay through the nose....

2 hours ago, Fred W. Hargis, Jr said:

I'm anxiously awaiting your explanation of the difference between a trade and a profession.

 

 

Fred, I think this illustrates it very well.

 

 

I bet you every trades person in the world has experienced this or similar.

 

4 hours ago, Fred W. Hargis, Jr said:

I'm anxiously awaiting your explanation of the difference between a trade and a profession.

 

WELL i HAVE A BONE TO PICK ON THAT ONE.  Shoot does he have caps on? 

 

Well any way here's the deal:  A Profession is some occupation in which  one is required to Profess or stated in the colloquial to give one's self over to some higher calling.   So really there is only one  profession and that's the clergy .   Everything else is an Avocation ( something one trains for) or a Vocation  ( passed down in some kind  of lineage). 

'

The mis use of  the term profession came about in the 1960s.  Things were happening:

Sports had become a national pastime with the introduction of first Radios and then Finally TELEVISION  into every home and that bozo talking head sports announcer Howard Cosell would call any blistering fool who could move a ball from point A to point B a REAL PROFESSIONAL

 

Then there was Education:

For the first time in the nation's history almost every family had at least one High school Graduate and  many  many of those families had a First in the family history College graduate.

This REALLY changed things.  Sonny Boy came home from college with that lovely hunk of fancy paper and a title to go with it. A TITLE,  HE  wasn't just a graduate he  has a Bachelor's degree.  And of course he wore clean cloths and his hands were clean and his fingernails weren't grubby and he got a nice  job in an office with Yet another TITLE from the company.  Engineer Manager of whatever    - - - you get the drill. 

Meanwhile Daddy's hands were dirty his cloths soiled and mommy's hands were still worn from cleaning cooking and house care.  And at the family picnics the son would get introduced around by his title/s  yadda yadda.

Pretty soon EVERYBODY NEEDED A TITLE to spruce up their  lives. So Janitors were Maintenance Engineers, Secretaries were Associates of some kind or other, and eventually every single person who did a thing with their hands was using the word engineer in some way. 

 

And eventually some genius decided that if you did it for money then it has to be a profession. And thus the word professional was slaughtered on the altar of  ego - or maybe it was insecurity.

 

So today Doctors lawyers all tell themselves that they are professionals because they think they have given their lives to some higher calling - - I say HOOEY    Sorting lint from one's bellybutton is not  a higher calling not matter how important that lint is to someone.

Even the courts and dictionaries have taken up this abuse of the language. SO today if you can make a lousy dime picking snot out of somebody's pet's sinuses you can call yourself a professional.

 

I don't use the word like that. I say the clergy is the only profession.

 

Edited October 31, 20169 yr by Cliff

2 hours ago, Steve Krumanaker said:

 

 

Fred, I think this illustrates it very well.

 

 

I bet you every trades person in the world has experienced this or similar.

 

 

nailed it.

 

i built something a few months ago.  sent pics of it before shipping.  they said they liked it.  shipped it at my cost.  2 months pass, no payment.  finally they tell me that it wasn't "fancy enough".  what?!  fine, send it back or pay for it.  got it back and gave it away.  $250 lost.  now....if i don't know you, you pay upfront.  a greatly inflated amount.

14 hours ago, Cliff said:

 I'm an attorney. You don't hate me do you?

 

Now I've done it. How do I repeal my statement ?  

Generalizing isn't a good thing, and I surely don't hate you Cliff. I just happen to have had dealings with a couple lawyers who could be classified as the bottom of the barrel. One who threatened me with court action for years. Ultimately, this "former attorney" was disbarred for theft from his own mother, and non payment  of thousands of dollars owed to clients.

14 hours ago, Cliff said:

 I'm an attorney. You don't hate me do you?

 

hate ... no...

trust you... definitely not...

This is what the dictionary says:

 

profession

 

 

[pruh-fesh-uh n]

 

• Synonyms
• Examples
• Word Origin

See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com

noun

1.

a vocation requiring knowledge of some department of learning or science:

the profession of teaching.

Compare learned profession.

2.

any vocation or business.

3.

the body of persons engaged in an occupation or calling:

to be respected by the medical profession.

4.

the act of professing; avowal; a declaration, whether true or false:

professions of dedication.

5.

the declaration of belief in or acceptance of religion or a faith:

the profession of Christianity.

6.

a religion or faith professed.

7.

the declaration made on entering into membership of a church or religious order.

Origin of profession

 

 

 

• 1

  carpenter

  play

  noun car·pen·ter \ˈkär-pən-tər, ˈkär-p^əm-tər\

  Popularity: Bottom 40% of words

  Simple Definition of carpenter

  • : a person whose job is to make or fix wooden objects or wooden parts of buildings

  Source: Merriam-Webster's Learner's Dictionary

   

   

  woodworker

  
  Also found in: Thesaurus, Encyclopedia, Wikipedia.

  wood·work·ing

   (wo͝od′wûr′kĭng)

  n.

  The act, art, or trade of working with wood.

  ---

  wood′work′er n.

  American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fifth Edition. Copyright © 2016 by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. All rights reserved.

  woodworker

  (ˈwʊdˌwɜːkə)

  n

  (Crafts) a person who works in wood, such as a carpenter, joiner, or cabinet-maker

  Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged, 12th Edition 2014 © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003, 2006, 2007, 2009, 2011, 2014

   

   

  So a woodworker is a carpenter or joiner or cabinet maker.

Edited October 31, 20169 yr by Gerald