minwax penetrating stain

[Michael Thuman]

It appears the minwax penetraing stain actually also has a dye.  Can anyone confrim this?

[kmealy]

Some Minwax stains ("Wood Finish") contain pigments, some dyes, and some both.   I contacted them last year prior to teaching a class to get a clarification and they said all contain pigments and none contain dyes.   I knew this to be false because I've been using their "Golden Oak" for years and know it's dye only.   I wrote to Bob Flexner and asked if he had a list.   I've seen it in the back of one of my finishing books (I thought it was Michael Dresdner, but couldn't find it in that one).   Here is Bob's response and the way to tell.    I've run this test on the six or so Minwax stains I have and labeled the lid as to results.

Flattered that Bob called me his "friend."

[PeteM]

Ah, this explains why (yesterday in fact) my [new] water based dye "golden oak" exactly replicated the Minwax golden oak "stain" that I used 15 years ago.

 

Anyone care to comment on the question "why does it matter?"?  IOW, what applications would benefit most from either dye or pigment?  Flexner mentioned that dye fades in sunlight (UV?).

[kmealy]

Pigment, in my experience, tends to splotch less than dyes.  Yes, dyes are less lightfast, but they're not going to fade in a year unless you put that end table in front of a wall of south-facing windows.  I've actually seen some commercial furniture that in 20+ years has a dark spot where the lamp sits.  My daughter has a desk, dresser, and loft bed that I used Minwax Golden Oak on 35 years ago, and while it might be lighter, it's still Golden Oak.   In fact, I converted the loft bed to a bunk bed for her twin boys 10 years ago and had to add some pieces.   The new piece was a decent match.

 

Note that most commercial furniture is colored with toners -- a finish with color in it.   Only very top end furniture would have the labor involved to use a wiping stain or glaze.   They want to shoot on the finish, come back in a few minutes and apply a second coat and within a few more minutes move it to the packing area.  They cannot afford to have three days worth of production sitting around drying.  That's also why when the finish is damaged, like from a fingernail polish remover spill (acetone), the color goes with it.

 

I generally tell people that the stains are going to fade and the wood is going to get a patina going in the opposite direction.   So it's a tug of war and while your color match may be perfect on day one, it's a crapshoot as to what it is going to be in 1, 10, 20, or 40 years.

[Michael Thuman]

5 hours ago, kmealy said:

Some Minwax stains ("Wood Finish") contain pigments, some dyes, and some both.   I contacted them last year prior to teaching a class to get a clarification and they said all contain pigments and none contain dyes.   I knew this to be false because I've been using their "Golden Oak" for years and know it's dye only.   I wrote to Bob Flexner and asked if he had a list.   I've seen it in the back of one of my finishing books (I thought it was Michael Dresdner, but couldn't find it in that one).   Here is Bob's response and the way to tell.    I've run this test on the six or so Minwax stains I have and labeled the lid as to results.

Flattered that Bob called me his "friend."

I was going to dye the whole peice to hide the lighter colored sap wood on some white oak then use Minwax stain to highlight the grain.  Looks like I do not need to dye becuase the stain has dye.  So I will make some samples and upload them.

1 with dyed then "stained"  Then just "stain".  The idea is to pop the grain but I do not know how now. Do you?

[Gerald]

In finishing Cherry I use garnet Shellac to do this @Michael Thuman . It works well and seems to slow the darkening that cherry will do also.

[Ron Altier]

Thanks........very informative.

[kmealy]

4 hours ago, Michael Thuman said:

I was going to dye the whole peice to hide the lighter colored sap wood on some white oak then use Minwax stain to highlight the grain.  Looks like I do not need to dye becuase the stain has dye.  So I will make some samples and upload them.

1 with dyed then "stained"  Then just "stain".  The idea is to pop the grain but I do not know how now. Do you?

It really depends on which color Minwax you use.  Like I said, some are dye only, some are pigment only, and some are both.   Use Flexner's method to determine which.   Another method that I frequently use is stain (my term for any of the three varieties above), a coat or two of finish, then a coat of glaze, then another coat or two of finish to lock in the glaze.  Here is such a project from white oak.   The glaze also highlights the beading.

 

 

[Michael Thuman]

Hi I applied a dye of light oak side A and medium brown side B to the sample peices with water based dye on pre-raised then sanded lightly quartersawn Oak.  

Then I want to stain over that but must I put down a sealer over the dye when the stain is oil based?

In thes past I have used .5 # cut of shellac and then on another project  no sealer both with similar results.

So if Oil over water wll not ruin the dye then why bother with the shellac?

Now shellac or water based poly over the oil stain should work also becuase oil and water do not mix.

But do you recommend a sealer coat between all finishes?

 

 

 

 

Edited June 27, 2019 by Michael Thuman

[PeteM]

12 hours ago, Michael Thuman said:

becuase oil and water do not mix.

But do you recommend a sealer coat between all finishes?

As I understand it, water and oil are just the "carriers":  both evaporate and leave essentially the same "stuff" behind.  I've mixed water and oil applications on the same piece, and all you have to remember is give the oil 8--12 hours to depart/dry before applying a water based product.  While the Flexner ID method determines whether the stain has dye (solution soluble) or pigment (suspended), both are added particulates that start out as powders, and end up as powders once dry.  How deep they penetrate while carried by the liquid is a difference.

[Michael Thuman]

9 minutes ago, PeteM said:

As I understand it, water and oil are just the "carriers":  both evaporate and leave essentially the same "stuff" behind.  I've mixed water and oil applications on the same piece, and all you have to remember is give the oil 8--12 hours to depart/dry before applying a water based product.  While the Flexner ID method determines whether the stain has dye (solution soluble) or pigment (suspended), both are added particulates that start out as powders, and end up as powders once dry.  How deep they penetrate while carried by the liquid is a difference.

So would you seal between the dye and the stain?

I should add the stain I picked as some dye in it but is mostly pigment.

The stain I am using is English Chesnut of the Light Oak Side A and the medium brown side B.

 

Edited June 28, 2019 by Michael Thuman

[Gerald]

I cannot remember the axiom is water over oil or oil over water is a no-no. Seal with shellac is I believe the solution because shellac will bind to either oil or water base.

  The problems with going the wrong way show up much later with failure of the finish coat.

 

But here is General Finishes take on it. Can-oil-and-water-based-products-be-used-over-one-another 

[Michael Thuman]

1 hour ago, Gerald said:

I cannot remember the axiom is water over oil or oil over water is a no-no. Seal with shellac is I believe the solution because shellac will bind to either oil or water base.

  The problems with going the wrong way show up much later with failure of the finish coat.

 

But here is General Finishes take on it. Can-oil-and-water-based-products-be-used-over-one-another 

Excellent video thanks.  I hope all are enjoying this thread.  In my case the water based dye is definetly dry.

So tonight here comes the oil.

 

[PeteM]

13 hours ago, Michael Thuman said:

So would you seal between the dye and the stain?

I never have.  As Gerald's find shows, dry time is important.  It's 110 here today, dry as a popcorn fart.  Drying goes a bit TOO fast under such conditions.  

[Gunny]

1 hour ago, PeteM said:

Drying goes a bit TOO fast under such conditions.  

In Iraq we made signs.  The paint they gave us was road marking paint.  In the desert heat of 120F + I stirred quickly then poured the paint onto the plywood.  By the time I got from one end to the other it was dry!!

 

Edited June 29, 2019 by Woodbutcherbynight