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Michael Thuman

Waterborne Finish issue

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When using a ploy that is water based I can stand there and watch it dry but how do dustprooof the finishing room.  The waterbone has lots of dimples from dust.  I will sand them smooth and try again.  Any advise appreciated.

 

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Depending on the dimple size, a folded piece of craft paper or, paper sack, will smooth them out. 

How large is your piece? You might try placing a cardboard box over it after the next finish application. 

 

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On 2/4/2019 at 8:27 AM, Gene Howe said:

Depending on the dimple size, a folded piece of craft paper or, paper sack, will smooth them out. 

How large is your piece? You might try placing a cardboard box over it after the next finish application. 

 

The Pieces are 4" x 4" and 5" x 7" and 4" x 8'  I am now finding that I had runs.  I have to wait for it to cure out hard then sand it all down again and start over.  Can anyone recommend a wiping method as the brush is putting too much material on the surface.  I know I need to dilute the Minwax PolyCritic water based stain finish but by how much to make a wiping solution?

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Try a foam brush.  W/B finishes dry very fast, so lay it down and leave it alone -- don't keep working it like you would an oil-based varnish.  Another hint I've heard, but not tried, is to use a non-natural bristle brush (e.g., polyester or nylon), wrap in some old nylon hose and use that.    I usually spray these finishes and my motto is, "Spray and go away."   It can look awful when you first get it on but as the water evaporates and the glycol ethers start to work, it settles down and looks fine.   Another option, if it's truly air-borne dust is to avoid dusty work before or after the application or do it in a different area.

 

You can normally fix up defects with some P400 sandpaper, followed by light gray or maroon Scotch-Brite

 

Also, is there a chance the wood ever had silicone oil, for example Pledge polish on it?   That wreaks havoc on about any finish except shellac.

Edited by kmealy

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I use Poly all the time it is my favorite finish, along with shellac. I usually do a first coat with a spray can shellac. It seals and raises the grain. I sand off the nubs with 220g after it drys, then apply the poly with a wide artists brush. I buy them in the drugstore in packs for a couple of bucks. about 3/4"-1" wide. I thin the poly 50/50 with water and squeeze out the excess on the brush so it goes on in a thin coat. then when dry in a couple hours, hand sand with 320g or 400g and repeat. I can do 4 coats a day.

I put equal parts of poly and water in a separate 1/2 pint jar with a twist cap and just add to it as I use it down.

Herb

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3 hours ago, Dadio said:

I use Poly all the time it is my favorite finish, along with shellac. I usually do a first coat with a spray can shellac. It seals and raises the grain. I sand off the nubs with 220g after it drys, then apply the poly with a wide artists brush. I buy them in the drugstore in packs for a couple of bucks. about 3/4"-1" wide. I thin the poly 50/50 with water and squeeze out the excess on the brush so it goes on in a thin coat. then when dry in a couple hours, hand sand with 320g or 400g and repeat. I can do 4 coats a day.

I put equal parts of poly and water in a separate 1/2 pint jar with a twist cap and just add to it as I use it down.

Herb

diluted 50% seems like a lot for water. I may try 25% water and 75% poly.  But I will let you know.  Also do you use tap or distilled water?  

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9 hours ago, kmealy said:

Try a foam brush.  W/B finishes dry very fast, so lay it down and leave it alone -- don't keep working it like you would an oil-based varnish.  Another hint I've heard, but not tried, is to use a non-natural bristle brush (e.g., polyester or nylon), wrap in some old nylon hose and use that.    I usually spray these finishes and my motto is, "Spray and go away."   It can look awful when you first get it on but as the water evaporates and the glycol ethers start to work, it settles down and looks fine.   Another option, if it's truly air-borne dust is to avoid dusty work before or after the application or do it in a different area.

 

You can normally fix up defects with some P400 sandpaper, followed by light gray or maroon Scotch-Brite

 

Also, is there a chance the wood ever had silicone oil, for example Pledge polish on it?   That wreaks havoc on about any finish except shellac.

It was bare wood, then oil stain, Then too much poly.  How do I tell if I have a China Bristle brush or Natural bristle brush?  Foam I have tried before with bad results but that was years ago.  So I will try again.  It is air borne dust creating the dimples but I really have no way of sealing the room I am in our dining room because the basement is too cold. Heat is a must in NW Indiana.  Spray is what I can do in the summer but not the winter.   I will vacum throughly and temporaly block the cold air return and registers.  

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Old sock, folded, bunched, moistened with water, wrung out.  I've found that wbpoly out of the can is just a little thick, so a dash of water (10%; I like distilled because our tap water is VERY high ppm) cuts it just a bit.  Sock>>wbp>>wood, wipes on very nicely, and just wets the surface, so difficult to get it to run (it will if you try hard enough!).  First coat:  lightly rub with 220 s-paper, or use a plastic scrubby* to smooth the surface.  If you get an over-applied area (aka, "run"), you can lift off the excess with a lightly applied chisel; let dry, sand the remaining drip area. 

 

*b'leeve it or not, a kitchen scrubby will work, if you don't get too aggressive.  I use a fine synthetic pad now, but the scrubby wasn't bad.

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4 minutes ago, Michael Thuman said:

  I will vacum throughly and temporaly block the cold air return and registers.  

It's REALLY hard to clean air.  Most (about 90%) of particulates in the air are human skin particles, and those are being generated by the occupants, not pumped from somewhere else.  If the finish is satin, light passage of fine s-paper or scrubby will smooth it.  For gloss, the paper bag does pretty well, but until the top coat dries we're fighting a battle against dust that cannot be "won", only offset after the fact.

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I do my finishing right in the shop and go to work after I put on a coat. When it is dry, I stop work and put on another coat . I use tap water, 50/50 and it goes on thin and 2 coats = 1 coat unthinned .

Herb

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13 hours ago, PeteM said:

It's REALLY hard to clean air.  Most (about 90%) of particulates in the air are human skin particles, and those are being generated by the occupants, not pumped from somewhere else.  If the finish is satin, light passage of fine s-paper or scrubby will smooth it.  For gloss, the paper bag does pretty well, but until the top coat dries we're fighting a battle against dust that cannot be "won", only offset after the fact.

Satin not flat so polishing with a scrubby or paper bag will be used and I will report back.

 

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9 hours ago, Dadio said:

I do my finishing right in the shop and go to work after I put on a coat. When it is dry, I stop work and put on another coat . I use tap water, 50/50 and it goes on thin and 2 coats = 1 coat unthinned .

Herb

Tap water can discolor I wold use distilled or reverse osmosis.  

I am going to try your thinned out method with foam brushes and also try artist brushes to see which works best.  What I am afraid of is to keep a wet edge as I put on the next coat.  I am still fighting the runs as they are still gummy so it will be a few days before I can try again.

 

Oh one final question do you sand between coats and if so what grits.  225, 400, 600....?

I sand to 400 but I may be burnishing the poly and need to go coarser.

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3 hours ago, Michael Thuman said:

Tap water can discolor I wold use distilled or reverse osmosis.  

I am going to try your thinned out method with foam brushes and also try artist brushes to see which works best.  What I am afraid of is to keep a wet edge as I put on the next coat.  I am still fighting the runs as they are still gummy so it will be a few days before I can try again.

 

Oh one final question do you sand between coats and if so what grits.  225, 400, 600....?

I sand to 400 but I may be burnishing the poly and need to go coarser.

I use a filtered water, I have never had very good luck with a foam brush, they seem to want to create small bubbles for me. I like the artist brushes, they are a fine synthetic bristle. If I find runs, I am putting the finish on too thick. The key is  to press the bristles to the side of the container,to get the excess off before I put it to the wood. The clear container helps to see the amount that the brush is holding. You can't get too much out of the brush, it still has enough to put on a thin coat. When I go back to the pot for more I only dip the brush 1/16" into the finish, and then wipe it on the side of the container. My theory is to build up thin layers until it shines when dry. then I let it cure for 4 days and then sand with 600g and put on carnuba wax, and polish with a cloth.

https://www.amazon.com/Lundmark-Wax-Paste-Clear-Lb/dp/B000BYAQC2/ref=sr_1_59?ie=UTF8&qid=1549483345&sr=8-59&keywords=carnauba+wax

 

Herb

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Dadio said:

I use a filtered water, I have never had very good luck with a foam brush, they seem to want to create small bubbles for me. I like the artist brushes, they are a fine synthetic bristle. If I find runs, I am putting the finish on too thick. The key is  to press the bristles to the side of the container,to get the excess off before I put it to the wood. The clear container helps to see the amount that the brush is holding. You can't get too much out of the brush, it still has enough to put on a thin coat. When I go back to the pot for more I only dip the brush 1/16" into the finish, and then wipe it on the side of the container. My theory is to build up thin layers until it shines when dry. then I let it cure for 4 days and then sand with 600g and put on carnuba wax, and polish with a cloth.

https://www.amazon.com/Lundmark-Wax-Paste-Clear-Lb/dp/B000BYAQC2/ref=sr_1_59?ie=UTF8&qid=1549483345&sr=8-59&keywords=carnauba+wax

 

Herb

 

 

 

Herb thanks do you sand between coats and if so to what grit?  Also I was using a 1.5" cutting brush and it was holding way too much material.

 

Edited by Michael Thuman

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I use 320g for the first thru the 4th application and then only when  needed if there is a rough spot during the process. Before the last coat I sand with 600g then put on the last coat.

HErb

Edited by Dadio

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8 minutes ago, Michael Thuman said:

Herb thanks do you sand between coats and if so to what grit?

Usually I put on at least 12 thin coats. That sounds like a lot ,but it amounts to 6 regular coats, and only takes 3 days at 4 thin coats/day.

HErb

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All thining the poly to 50% water 50% poly beads up water on flat surfaces and creates strange circles.  

Put it on very thin and a full film wait 20 minutes and now you have puddles. 

I will try and fairly dry bush with 100% poly and report back tonight.

I had to strip and resand and re stain the blocks becuase I could not reoslve the issues with the poly.

 

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