Green wood?

[PostalTom]

I bought a Jet lathe a few years ago, with the best of intentions.  I have since done very little, not through lack of interest, but other priorities and projects interfered.  I now want to start learning/using the lathe, and in researching turning blanks, I see a lot of vendors seem to be advertising more green blanks than dried blanks.  So my question is, as a novice turner with almost no experience, should I go with green wood, or try to find kiln dried blanks to start out with?  What are the advantages and disadvantages of green blanks?  I bought a cheap set of lathe tools from HF.  Does green wood require special gouges, chisels, etc. or will the standard tools be sufficient?  Does turning green wood require any different maintenance on the turning tools, such as more sharpening, different surface protection, etc.?  Sorry for the long list of questions, and some of the answers may seem to be fairly obvious, but I don't want to assume something and wish later that I had asked.  Thanks.

[lew]

Green wood is much easier to turn than dried wood. The shavings peel off in long ribbons even if your sharpening skills aren't quite perfected. 

 

As for tools, same tools work for both. 

 

The biggest difference you will see is that things turned from green wood tend to warp after turning due to drying. Some folks enjoy the changes in shape others do not. Green turned bowls tend to crack and split unless they are turned to the finished size in one operation. 

 

Green wood is usually free- just drive around town and look for the guys cutting/trimming trees- usually they'll let you have anything they've cut.

[HandyDan]

Lew covered it very well for you.  You don't want to spend money on practice wood. 

[John Morris]

2 hours ago, lew said:

Green turned bowls tend to crack and split unless they are turned to the finished size in one operation. 

Hey Lew, i was watching a video somewhere, and the turner turned the green bowls to rough size, then wrapped it in plastic and set it up to dry before turning to finish size. This was a production turner, she had about 50 green wood blanks she roughed out, and wrapped.

What are your thoughts on that process?

Thanks

[lew]

24 minutes ago, John Morris said:

Hey Lew, i was watching a video somewhere, and the turner turned the green bowls to rough size, then wrapped it in plastic and set it up to dry before turning to finish size. This was a production turner, she had about 50 green wood blanks she roughed out, and wrapped.

What are our thoughts on that process?

Thanks

There are several methods of slow drying a bowl blank. For the production turner, the plastic is probably the most cost effective way. For me, I use paper grocery bags. Partially fill the bag with the wet shavings, pack the bowl cavity with wet shavings, put the blank in the bag and add more shavings to cover the blank. Roll the top closed and write the date on the bag. The wet shavings allow the moisture to slowly escape and helps reduce the possibility of cracks. The rule of thumb, for this type of drying, is to leave the blank wall thickness 1/10 the diameter of the bowl blank. A 10" bowl would have 1" wall thickness during the drying period. It's difficult to predict how long the blanks need to dry. So many variables- wood type, initial moisture, ambient air conditions, etc. I usually don't even bother with them for 8 to 10 months- maybe even a year. After the wait, then the blank can be finished turned- usually without warping or cracking.

 

There are other drying methods as well- microwave, alcohol bath and others. More prolific turners will find faster methods to meet their needs.

 

There was a member of another sight that became quite the artist in turning hollow cylinders. He turned everything wet and turned the wall thicknesses to about 1/8" thick. His theory was that with walls that thin, all of the stresses were released and cracking didn't occur. I think he did experiment with the alcohol drying method.

Here's an example of his work-

This piece is about 6" x 6"

 

Found a video of his work-

 

 

Edited October 13, 2016 by lew

[Gerald]

Lew hit it right. When you dry in paper with shavings open the bag daily or swap the bag out to reduce the moisture locked in the bag. Moisture locked in by either paper or plastic (do not use plastic) will cause mold and mildew to form and that is BAD. Plastic can be used if you have to stop turning for the day or if you plan to get back to it the next day.

 

Wet wood may seem to cut better than dry but still need to have sharp tools. If you get chatter you may need to sharpen. Cheap tools may be ok to start but if you get serious you will want better equipment.

[Ron Altier]

I have bought blanks at Rocklers that were covered in wax. While they are not green, they certainly are not dry. I had assumed that they were. Wrong, they cracked. When I asked about how to properly handle these blanks, this was their answer. Cut the ends off with a very thin cut, just enough to remove the wax. Wrap it in paper and store in the open for 2 to 3 weeks. The guy told me that he then takes the paper off and allows it to dry another 2 weeks before using. I did as instructed and did not have a problem. 

 I don't like that, I buy a blank because it is fine/exotic wood and want to start my project soon after purchase. However, it is what it is and if I want it work, it has to be done properly

[lew]

31 minutes ago, Ron Altier said:

covered in wax. While they are not green, they certainly are not dry.

I understand that kiln dried wood has different characteristics than air dried.  Maybe the idea is to keep the original species characteristics by allowing the wood to slowly dry. Sealing the blank with wax is one way to limit the drying rate but as you said, it comes at the cost of delaying your project startup time.

[PostalTom]

Thanks everyone for the responses and advice.  However, I am still left with one of my original questions.  Should I start out with green wood, or kiln dried?  Having to let a turning sit for 8 to 12 months before getting back to it seems like a long learning curve.

16 hours ago, Gerald said:

Cheap tools may be ok to start but if you get serious you will want better equipment

Gerald, I get that.  I bought the cheap tools primarily to learn sharpening techniques, took a Woodcraft class in OKC, and have done some basic sharpening to start learning that aspect.  Your advice is well taken, and I do intend to upgrade my tools when I am confident I won't destroy them in the process.

[Steve Krumanaker]

19 minutes ago, PostalTom said:

Thanks everyone for the responses and advice.  However, I am still left with one of my original questions.  Should I start out with green wood, or kiln dried?  Having to let a turning sit for 8 to 12 months before getting back to it seems like a long learning curve.

Gerald, I get that.  I bought the cheap tools primarily to learn sharpening techniques, took a Woodcraft class in OKC, and have done some basic sharpening to start learning that aspect.  Your advice is well taken, and I do intend to upgrade my tools when I am confident I won't destroy them in the process.

 

I would say it depends on what you want to turn. When I first started turning seriously for fun I didn't know you could turn green wood either. First several bowls I made were from kiln dried hardwood, I hope to never do that again. Since then, I've turned a few hundred bowls, all of them started out green. If I can, I will rough out bowls the same day a tree comes down. Some I will turn to finish green and leave the thickness around 3/8" or less. Others, I will rough out and leave the thickness about 10% of the diameter and plan on finishing them in a year or so. For what it's worth, I don't use the bag method but coat the entire bowl with an end grain sealer, typically Anchorseal. Doing that, I save upwards of 90% of my rough outs. Don't worry about the drying time, eventually you will have a ready supply of blanks ready to be finished.

That's for bowls.

Now, if you're talking about work between centers, i.e. spindle work, that is turned after the wood is dried, usually kiln dried.

 

Steve

[PostalTom]

Thanks Steve.  Your answer kind of confirms what I suspected.  As for what I want to turn, I think I would like to learn bowl turning, and hollowing, such as for pepper mills, goblets, things of that nature.  I actually did one piece of spindle work.  I was practicing coves and beads on a piece of oak left over from a project.  As I just experimented, I thought this could actually "turn" (sorry) out useful.  I ended up attaching the spindle to a round base, and gave it to my wife for a paper towel stand.

 

This is how that turned out.

Edited October 13, 2016 by PostalTom
reposition image

[lew]

Most of what I turn is kiln dried. Usually walnut or maple. Green wood stuff is usually reserved for making something from a tree which has some sentimental value.

[Gerald]

4 hours ago, PostalTom said:

Thanks everyone for the responses and advice.  However, I am still left with one of my original questions.  Should I start out with green wood, or kiln dried?  Having to let a turning sit for 8 to 12 months before getting back to it seems like a long learning curve.

 

Tom it is not necessary to wait for 8-12 months. I weigh my pieces and when the weight stops changing for 2-3 days I do the second turn. On may of the pieces I turn the thickness after first turn is near 1 inch. You can turn thin on first turn and not get a significant amount of warp on some woods, but I would not recommend that to a beginner.

 

After you get started you will always have some dry pieces to go back to to finish, then you may get into embellishment and that will take even more time.

 

By the way on the drying after 2 weeks remove the chips and leave the bowl in the bag with the top closed for the remainder of drying.

[FlGatorwood]

Of concern, I ask this question.  I read someplace that to turn the bowl inside to not use a spindle gouge.  I read that to hollow out a bowl that the shank of the chisel should be 1/2" round stock and should have the bowl gouge flute.  The shank is thicker and safer on the bowl gouge.  Is this a real concern?

 

Steve, the old FlGatorwood

Quote

 

 

[PostalTom]

1 hour ago, Gerald said:

I weigh my pieces and when the weight stops changing for 2-3 days I do the second turn.

OK, so what do you use to weigh the pieces?  Bathroom scales, a good set of food scales, or something else?  Basically, how hi-tech should I get on weighing?

[Gerald]

13 hours ago, PostalTom said:

OK, so what do you use to weigh the pieces?  Bathroom scales, a good set of food scales, or something else?  Basically, how hi-tech should I get on weighing?

I have a digital scale from HF. I think it goes to 5000 gm. I think they have one larger. I weigh each time I go to shop, but you could do every other day or every third.

Edited October 14, 2016 by Gerald

[Gerald]

13 hours ago, FlGatorwood said:

Of concern, I ask this question.  I read someplace that to turn the bowl inside to not use a spindle gouge.  I read that to hollow out a bowl that the shank of the chisel should be 1/2" round stock and should have the bowl gouge flute.  The shank is thicker and safer on the bowl gouge.  Is this a real concern?

 

Steve, the old FlGatorwood

 

Lots of ways to hollow . Some even use a scraper. In Europe for some it is a spindle gouge. No it does not have to be half inch.

[lew]

14 hours ago, FlGatorwood said:

Of concern, I ask this question.  I read someplace that to turn the bowl inside to not use a spindle gouge.  I read that to hollow out a bowl that the shank of the chisel should be 1/2" round stock and should have the bowl gouge flute.  The shank is thicker and safer on the bowl gouge.  Is this a real concern?

 

Steve, the old FlGatorwood

 

That's correct. A spindle gouge isn't "beefy" enough to handle the forces exerted by the spinning blank. Also, the typical spindle gouge grind isn't conducive to the angles of the tool attack.

As Gerald said, scrapers are also an option. Bowl scrapers are usually quite thick to withstand the forces. 

Edited October 14, 2016 by lew

[Charles Nicholls]

17 hours ago, lew said:

As Gerald said, scrapers are also an option. Bowl scrapers are usually quite thick to withstand the forces. 

 

I have 2 scrapers myself one is a squared end (flat) 3/4" wide, and one is slightly rounded 1" wide. both are 3/8" thick. When I don't want to mess around with removing a lot of wood in a fair hurry, I'll grab that 1"x3/8" scraper and let it rip. Even dry wood comes off rather quickly

Speaking of dry wood, If I am turning something for a customer, I will usually use dry wood, simply for time sake and less splitting issues. If I am just turning for me or a client orders a blank that is not dried, then I will use it. Sure dry wood is harder on the sharp edges, but I'd just rather not deal with splitting/warping, unless the natural effect is what I am after.

 

Just my 2 cents

 

[Gerald]

On 10/14/2016 at 11:17 AM, lew said:

That's correct. A spindle gouge isn't "beefy" enough to handle the forces exerted by the spinning blank. Also, the typical spindle gouge grind isn't conducive to the angles of the tool attack.

As Gerald said, scrapers are also an option. Bowl scrapers are usually quite thick to withstand the forces. 

Lew I have to disagree with you on the beefyness of a spindle gouge. Personally I would not use one for roughing a green blank, but I would and do some use it for the finish cut and for dry boxes. In these cases it works much mike a skew. I think the spindle gouge is a 3/8 that I use for this. I had not done this much til I saw it at the AAW Symposium in Atlanta and the Europeans make this look like the only way to hollow boxes. I do understand your perspective and I used to think the same,but not for beefy size just thought that was the way, If you want you could hollow a bowl with a 1/4 inch gouge,just that it would take a lot longer. Thanks for listening.