Ace..

 

When I used to restore Model A Fords, I did the final painting with my Binks Model 7 spray gun.

I found a Model 7 knockoff at a swap meet for $20, and it worked as well as my Model 7, so I used it to apply the primer-surfacer.  Thin to 22 seconds through a Zahn Cup and use 40-45 PSI at the gun.

Larry

Ace HoleInOne said:

Cool...so it's basically shellac under a satin water-based topcoat? The shellac will provide the gold or amber tone that will  mimic an oil. Thanks man.

 

Another question...I also read... you say the key is to spray with a quality spray gun? Does that mean expensive that cost  hundreds of dollars? I have used, with excellent results, the compressed air spray gun, Bob mentioned above. I also have a compressed air Huskey brand hvlp (a knock off of a better gun, so  I have read) from Home Depot. The way I understand, some water-based finishes are formulated to be either brushed or sprayed, while some are meant to be only sprayed. So if a finish can be brushed or sprayed, do you really need an expensive spray gun? Get the finish on the wood let the finish do its thing, which is to flow out smooth?

 

-Ace-

 

these are stair tred samples I did today with EnduroVar over shellac. Works well and is fast. On my doors I normally use tung oil as the tie base .

Ace HoleInOne said:

Cool...so it's basically shellac under a satin water-based topcoat? The shellac will provide the gold or amber tone that will  mimic an oil. Thanks man.

 

Another question...I also read... you say the key is to spray with a quality spray gun? Does that mean expensive that cost  hundreds of dollars? I have used, with excellent results, the compressed air spray gun, Bob mentioned above. I also have a compressed air Huskey brand hvlp (a knock off of a better gun, so  I have read) from Home Depot. The way I understand, some water-based finishes are formulated to be either brushed or sprayed, while some are meant to be only sprayed. So if a finish can be brushed or sprayed, do you really need an expensive spray gun? Get the finish on the wood let the finish do its thing, which is to flow out smooth?

 

-Ace-

 

Larry...I hear ya about the spray gun..sometimes its not the arrow, its the Indian.

 

Rob...those are going to look awesome. I too,  use oil (general finishes seal-a-cell) under the water-based to help warm things up.

 

I have a question Rob, and I apologize, if I asked you this already...have you had any adhesion issues with the shellac under the Enduro-Var? The reason I ask...this is a quote direct from General Finishes web-site, with regards to using sealers... Enduro-Var is self sealing. Do not use over other sealers or topcoats without consulting with General Finishes.

 

-Ace-

I think that is standard company policy about finishes. They don't like oil under water or other brands of finishes used with theirs. I have not had an issue with seal a cell under Enduro var. Just let it dry first, overnight at least.

you want to avoid the older guns , like the binks #7, I too used and loved this gun, while it will spray a water bourne , its alot different than solvent based products, and much thicker, even though I have sprayed thicker automotive primers with it, the issue is the amount of overspray, these guns depended on suction created by larger volumes of air moving thru the gun, so you have alot more pressure, thus alot more overspray, and with water base, since it does not redissolve very much, meaning any over spray settling back on the piece will not be remelted into the film as with a solvent you can get a gritty finish , the knock off gravity feds as Bob described do well, the turbine guns typically are actually based on the good ole Binks #7 , except they pressurize the cup to help push the fluid , instead of having to use all the high pressure for suction, Gravity Fed is self explanitory, but I have to say, when you pressurize a cup including a gravity fed, you can use a much smaller needle/nozzle , and it makes a world of difference, allows you to spray water bourne, just like solvent, meaning a very very fine atomization, but for the average home owner or hobby guy, the knock off gravitys work well, I use a 1.4 or 1.5 needle/nozzle set up

40 to 45 lbs at the gun,. I like 10 to 15,  much less over spray,  try a gravity fed, you will be amazed at the difference,

Larry Jenkins said:

Ace..

 

When I used to restore Model A Fords, I did the final painting with my Binks Model 7 spray gun.

I found a Model 7 knockoff at a swap meet for $20, and it worked as well as my Model 7, so I used it to apply the primer-surfacer.  Thin to 22 seconds through a Zahn Cup and use 40-45 PSI at the gun.

Larry

Ace HoleInOne said:

Cool...so it's basically shellac under a satin water-based topcoat? The shellac will provide the gold or amber tone that will  mimic an oil. Thanks man.

 

Another question...I also read... you say the key is to spray with a quality spray gun? Does that mean expensive that cost  hundreds of dollars? I have used, with excellent results, the compressed air spray gun, Bob mentioned above. I also have a compressed air Huskey brand hvlp (a knock off of a better gun, so  I have read) from

Home Depot

. The way I understand, some water-based finishes are formulated to be either brushed or sprayed, while some are meant to be only sprayed. So if a finish can be brushed or sprayed, do you really need an expensive spray gun? Get the finish on the wood let the finish do its thing, which is to flow out smooth?

 

-Ace-

 

I have used shellac under enduro var and no issues, but I do a light 600 scuff sand, for two reasons, one to defuzz and second to provide a mechanical bond, however with endurovar the amber tint it has is usually good enough , or for me it is,so unless I am layering in a color or need to seal off an oil or other reason for shellac, I just use the endurovar,

    I do a fiishing class for a local turners group, and have introduced them to enduro var, they love it, basically we apply the product off the later, by brush, spray or wipe, get 3 or 4 good coats , back on the lathe and the micro mesh or abralon and its like glass, had one guy who had a "well spalted" bowl, we drowned it in the enduro var, did 3 coats, let it dry, back on the lathe and did a 80 grit sand, then applied 2 more coats, and sanded and rubbed to a gloss, it did great, we actually used the product to stabilize the very very soft wood, that was about 8 months ago, still looks great., and for kicks and giggles, we ran it a time or 4 thru the dishwasher, .. no issue,

    a turning finish I really like on quick , not going to get hard  use, is,  a good wet coat of 2 lb shellac, let dry, about 30 min, then while turning, light sand with some 600 just to smooth, then apply a second wet coat, while turning, like a friction finish, while wet I use some of the rennasance ( sp) wax, and buff them together, this wax is really hard, and shellac and wax get along well, in a matter of a few min, you have a nice slick, great feeling finish, did this in a demo, I did, and needed a quick finish, I was turning a garden tool handle, that was a year or 2 ago, the have pretty good use, and the finish still loks like the day I did, it, just a little FYI

Ace , No adhesion problems to date on epoxy or shellac . I usually abrade , use a glaze to achieve the effect I'm looking for and seal with EnduroVar. Later if wanted ,  I dye subsequent EnduroVar coatings to the tone  required. This has worked pretty well for me. By the way the treds pictured have built up edges and are not thick at all on the tops they just look "solid ".

Ace HoleInOne said:

Larry...I hear ya about the spray gun..sometimes its not the arrow, its the Indian.

 

Rob...those are going to look awesome. I too,  use oil (general finishes seal-a-cell) under the water-based to help warm things up.

 

I have a question Rob, and I apologize, if I asked you this already...have you had any adhesion issues with the shellac under the Enduro-Var? The reason I ask...this is a quote direct from General Finishes web-site, with regards to using sealers... Enduro-Var is self sealing. Do not use over other sealers or topcoats without consulting with General Finishes.

 

-Ace-

Thanks Rob...just wonder if anybody has heard from the horses mouth (General Finishes) They do make such a bold statement on their tech data sheet about sealers!  

 

Just curious 

 

-Ace-

 

 

 

Ace , I will ask them in LV next month .

Ace HoleInOne said:

Thanks Rob...just wonder if anybody has heard from the horses mouth (General Finishes) They do make such a bold statement on their tech data sheet about sealers!  

 

Just curious 

 

-Ace-

 

 

 

got an email into Rob now, hold tight

I'll check back in a bit . This is an excellent thread - I sure like seeing this on the TPW !

charles neil said:

got an email into Rob now, hold tight

3 folks from General Finishes are members of this forum...sorry if I'm putting any of them on the spot? 

 

-Ace-

Excellent stuff here guys, I'm enjoying this.

Ok here is the short answer, ( called Rob),

 EnduroVar is a very unique urethane resin, pure urethane, that why is so hard and durable, however , as most know urethanes  ( poly means two, so polyurethanes are blends),  dont like to bond to "other" products, so layering multiple coats of any thing can hinder the products to bond to the wood, remember waterbourn doesnt burn in like solvent, and the "oil" ( loose term) , in Endurovar, cant get into the wood, so the ambering effect can be diminished, as well the adhesion to the wood can be challenged, so all of that said, here is the "rule"

 shellac can be used  but only in a 1lb cut or less, be sure dyes and stains are fully dry, dyes especially, many dyes have a form of solvent,  as well as water, the water will evaporate off before the "solvent', so give the dyes an extra hour or so, to dry, especially if using them as a glaze, the moral of the story is don't put alot of "stuff" on before the endurovar,

   from me , the other issue for me is mixing brands and concoctions, its done everyday, but again with any poly or urethane, be sure the colorants are completely dry and don't get too much goop on there to hinder wood contact,,

  hope this helps

All well said. On the mixing issue my solution was to have on hand a can of every color GF makes along with some hypodermic needles and a log book . This way I can match anything I come up against and stay in the "family " .Lately GF has a more elegant kit available now that basically does the same thing. Another thing I wanted to state is that I always test and evaluate my "concoctions " before employment and along the way have had a few "surprises "  LOL

your exactly right Rob, the single smartest thing you can do , is select a quality brand, and stick with it, get to know the colors and all the ins and out's, soon you will be able to do anything you want, and you will know everything is compatable, just smart business,.

Interesting about the bonding issue to the wood itself. I know I always test. I hate surprises. Rob, are you getting one of those "mix your own " setups from General Finishes? The one with all the colors? Charles, do you have one of those set ups? I wish I could do that, but I am no good judge of color.

not yet, but should be here shortly

Charles...the comment  "up to a 1 pound cut of shellac" and your telephone conversation with Rob. And for those who are trying to learn how all those stuff works.

 

Is it fair to say, only (1) one coat of a  (1) one pound cut of shellac is permissible, under the Enduro-Var, so not to over seal?

 

Meaning (2) two coats of a (1) one pound cut is probably not recommended and could over seal?

 

-Ace-