I stumbled into this today. Interesting article on different PVA glues

As an added comment, many years ago, Fine Woodworking ran some tests on glue strength. This was shortly after Gorilla Glue polyurethane version came out. It failed miserably on poorly fitting joints. Yes, the foam fills gaps, but no, that foam has no strength.

I quit using it after the first bottle or two

• needs to be clamped so the foam does not push the joint apart

• does not fill gaps

• foam is messy on the wood as it flows out of the joint

• foam is messy on your fingers

• foam is messy if it gets into your clothing

• stains your skin unless removed in short term

• relatively short shelf life once opened

• a mess to clean up if the joint does not hold and needs to be reglued*

* I used to moan when I'd get to a repair job and the homeowner said, "My husband tried to repair this with Gorilla Glue."

On 9/26/2026 at 11:17 AM, Fred W. Hargis Jr said:

I'll disagree about the length of time it takes for glue to creep. Years ago I built a bedroom set and used PVA for the tops. The had the little ridges along the seams within 2 years. Since then I've quite using it on tops, I've never had a problem using the UF glues for that. The workbench in my shop is laminated 2" thick maple strips. I assembled it in 3 sections using UF, then when I glued the 3 sections together I had ran our of UF and used PVA. It has glue creep at those 2 seams but no where else. That's what id driving my move to Titebond original, I think it still creeps but much less than the T II I have been using for years. Truthfully, even if it takes many years to develop creep, I wouldn't want it on my table tops.

You know, I've heard of this, but have never experienced glue creep in any of the several tops I've built over the years. If glue has expanded and is extruding out of the joint, then wouldn't inadequate clamping pressure be the cause? Would wood stability/movement be factor, specifically expansion? Anyway I don't fully understand it, so I'm going to do some research, but right now I'm having trouble seeing how it could be the glue, It would seem to be more related to the tightness of the joint, amount of glue and clamp pressure.

But, Fred, you made me look. 🙂 I checked a dresser and two night stands and a hall table, a dining table all built 2-6 years ago. I don't see any glue creep. Maybe I need to look closer....

To answer your question, though, I'm not aware of the glue creep issue, but in order of frequency, I use 3 glues: TB Original, 2) Elmer's Glue All, 3) Old Brown Glue. Could that have something to do with why I don't see it?

36 minutes ago, Robert Engel said:

To answer your question, though, I'm not aware of the glue creep issue, but in order of frequency, I use 3 glues: TB Original, 2) Elmer's Glue All, 3) Old Brown Glue. Could that have something to do with why I don't see it?

That would be my guess. For years T2 has been my goto, and my nemesis with glue creep. I've not had creep problems with hide glue or the above mentioned UF glues. That's why I've switched to Titebond original....although I wouldn't be surprised if it has some creep issues; just a lot less than it's brethren. That said, a lot of folks indicate they haven't had creep with T2, so it may be a combination of factors that make it appear. Whatever the cause it's a real thing, and quite annoying.

On 9/23/2026 at 6:02 AM, Fred W. Hargis Jr said:

I need to buy some glue after making a sideboard, and I'm thinking about switching from my usual Titebond II to Titebond original. In looking around for some info I came across this exert from a thread that i though might be of interest to some. Although it's a little long, it's still (to me) an interesting read.

"I'm a former Franklin employee and worked in the technical group until March of this year. Bill, your name sounds very familiar and I'm almost positive I've spoken with you at some point. If you're who I'm thinking of you requested an informational CD after IWF two years ago after talking with Dale.

Anyways, since departing Franklin I've founded a business that is focused on guitars (after consulting that industry for a bit over a decade.) I have no industry affiliations with respect to adhesives: So here's the straight dope on the differences:

White glues were the first PVA based adhesives and had little else to them. As a result they had lousy water resistance, were highly prone to creep, and generally wound up with a poor reputation compared to hot and liquid hide glues that were dominant in the woodworking industries at the time (mid 40s.) In order to improve their performance across the board (tack, creep resistance, thermal resistance, water resistance, to name a few) tackifying resins were added. In case you're wondering, this is all that "aliphatic resin" glues consist of. I often call them resin-modified PVA's because I consider it a less confusing term. This modification would not change the color on its own, so the decision was made to add yellow dye to differentiate them from white glues and is purely a marketing strategy. I have personally used dye free II and tested low quality yellow glues from manufacturers who have done nothing more than add dye to white glue. Uninformed individuals may try to convince you that yellow was added because it provided a better match to the surrounding wood. This is simply untrue. Not to mention, if you can see a glue line it's too thick. As part of some competitive testing I performed on Gorilla Wood Glue (not the ... The type II water resistant white glue) I found that not only was it nearly colorless and clear when dried but its performance was effectively identical to that of II. If you need something colorless for an exterior application I would not hesitate to recommend Gorilla Wood Glue. III is a different animal. It was actually the end result of a project to achieve type I water resistance from a PVA as a method to compete with urea-formaldehyde adhesives. It does accomplish it, but unless you're building a cutting board, countertop, or skateboard, I wouldn't recommend it. The product is prone to creep, and there's a reason its shear strength at 150°F isn't published: it's not great, usually around 1000 PSI which equates to a 2/3 loss of bond strength.

In terms of strength, at room temperature a good white glue can cause 100% wood failure just like Original, Extend, II, and III. Under ASTM D-905, they are also tested for shear strength at 150°F at which point from best to worst the list will look as follows: Extend, II Extend, Original, II, III. All PVA based adhesives are thermoplastics, which simply means they will melt (most of them reach their melting point somewhere above 250°F.) This is known as thermal plasticity, and in case you're wondering, it correlates exactly with creep resistance. It's also the reason that as a guitar manufacturer I personally use primarily Extend and 50. They're overkill, but if a guitar gets left in a hot car I can still feel confident that it wont come apart.

I've seen the term crosslinking a lot in this thread and some confusion about how it relates to creep. Picture plain PVA adhesive as wet spaghetti noodles: If you leave them to dry they will tangle around each other and shrink a bit, and you won't be able to pull the mass apart easily. Put that mess back into water and they will separate. Crosslinking PVAs would look more like spaghetti noodles that actually fused together as they dried and if you put them into water again those fused points (just like covalent crosslinks) would not separate. However, they do not crosslink with the wood itself. Instead, they have relatively weak electrostatic interactions (known as hydrogen bonds and van der waals forces) but in HUGE numbers, which is why they still create bonds stronger than wood.

I saw Bob's name mentioned, you're welcome to contact him if you wish. I helped train him, and unlike myself he comes from the sales/marketing world and still has an obvious corporate affiliation. In my case: I'm an entrepreneur with no specific allegiance to any adhesives company aside from my father who works for their industrial division. My Dad is the reason that despite being a younger guy I have been learning about the adhesives industry for over 25 years. I do my best to keep an eye on message boards because even though it's not technically my responsibility anymore, I care about getting good information out to fellow woodworkers. Not to mention, at over 5 months unemployed and just starting to get endorsements and contract work... It makes me feel like I'm still contributing something to the world.

I'm sure I've opened a can of worms, so feel free to reply or contact me directly. I'm always happy to help.

-Hugh "

That’s some insider gold. Yellow dye is just marketing... who knew? And Type III creeping is a real warning. Thanks for sharing

I have made furniture tops using Titebond 3 and have had glue creep. I have made furniture tops using Titebond 3 and have NOT had glue creep.

I know Tim Coleman, Philip Morley, Eric Curtis, and Keith Johnson are now using Gorilla Glue when working with lumber core laminations. This glue use has less water for glue-ups. To activate the glue they lightly spritz one side with a gardener's water spritzer/mister. Danl

On 9/23/2026 at 3:02 AM, Fred W. Hargis Jr said:

I need to buy some glue after making a sideboard, and I'm thinking about switching from my usual Titebond II to Titebond original.

Try Lee Valley's. It's as good or better than Titebond IMO.

Edited October 9Oct 9 by MrRick