Water Based Poly

[Michael Thuman]

My daughter wants a clear finish on an Oak top for a bed side table.

The polyacrlic from min wax is in a can but is hard to mix to a satin sheen.

I did pre raise the grain with distilled water and will lightly sand with 400 to know it back down.

The color of the oak when wet is a lighter tan but when dry is basicaly white.

So I think I have white oak.  

Should i put some linseed oil on it first to give it some depth and color or just coat with clear water based poly?

Will water based poly go over linseed oil?

I could impart some color with a base coat fo shellac but i have non mixed and I have dark garnet, orange and light.

So a seal coat of light could be laid down.

This oak has bin holes due to bugs and some slots where they traveled horiziontialy.

But over all the table top is sound and in good shape.

Will the water based dry to a wet look of tan boards or a dry look of dry boards?

i have some scraps I can practice on but wanted your valuable opinons first.

Thanks in advance

Michael

 

[lew]

My finishing experience is minimal but when I've used water based poly it doesn't impart the same depth of color that oil based finished does. I've read stuff written by @kmealy saying that you can put any finish over shellac, so my guess is using shellac first- probably the orange, then top coat with the water based poly.

 

Just my 2¢ 

 

[Gene Howe]

Like Lew, my knowledge is minimal also. The only time I use water based is as a sanding sealer or, to prep for a resin pour. It seals the pores. Using it in those limited instances, I find I wouldn't care to use it for a final finish regardless of the underlying coats. YMMV.

There is stuff called oil modified water-based poly. Never tried it, though.

Edited August 22, 2023 by Gene Howe

[Ron Dudelston]

John Moody exclusively uses General Finishes Endurovar and swears by it.

[Gene Howe]

27 minutes ago, Ron Dudelston said:

John Moody exclusively uses General Finishes Endurovar and swears by it.

For $28 it might be worth giving it a shot.

[Michael Thuman]

6 minutes ago, Gene Howe said:

For $28 it might be worth giving it a shot.

I see it on amazon for endovar II for $54 per quart.

 

[Michael Thuman]

14 minutes ago, Michael Thuman said:

I see it on amazon for endovar II for $54 per quart.

Orded it anyway and will report back.

 

[Gerald]

Personally do not care for WB finishes. It will be the least color change to the wood. Yes shellac is universal sealer and can be used between any finish . Not sure about using linseed oil but would rather add a dye to the shellac to acquire a proper color.

[Cal]

I hate to put my ignorance on display for all to see... but here goes:

 

18 hours ago, Gerald said:

Not sure about using linseed oil but would rather add a dye to the shellac to acquire a proper color.

 

Gerald, would you use an oil, water or alcohol base dye if mixing with shellac - or do any of them work?

 

@kmealy - I've long thought that water and shellac didn't play well.  I've never finished a table top with shellac opting for other finishes instead.  Is my thinking wrong, or how does applying a WB finish over shellac square with that?

[kmealy]

I have used a lot of waterborne finish, but not Minwax.  I've used stuff from Valspar, Sherwin-Williams, and General FInishes.  In all cases but one, I've sprayed it on with an HVLP sprayer.  Also be aware that w/b "Poly" I think is largely a marketing misnomer.  Most of the solids are acrylic.

 

Usually I have used a waterbased stain first.  If I was refinishing and suspected Pledge contamination, I would treat with SealCoat (2 lb cut dewaxed shellac) between the stain and the top coat as a barrier coat.  

 

I have recently read not to put waterborne finishes over linseed oil (at least directly), but I've never tried this, so cannot say.  But I would not venture into it.

 

Most any finish will result in a "wet" look and not a "dry" look.

 

When using any  new finish or technique - test on samples first.

 

Here is the one piece I've done that has no stain, red oak, GF EnduroVar.  Sorry, either the floor is slanted or the bulletin board on the wall is not level.

Edited August 23, 2023 by kmealy

[Fred W. Hargis Jr]

About the linseed oil being top coated with a water borne...you can do that, but the BLO must be mostly cured...like a week or so. That problem doesn't exist as badly with oil based varnish. oil based can on BLO after a day or so.

[Gerald]

Never hear of an oil based dye.....stain . When you use a alcohol base dye and apply shellac over it remember shellac is also alcohol based and will possibly lead to runs in the stain. I do mostly turned items so the dyes I use are mostly alcohol based with shellac in the mix. Therefore I do not see a problem with using shellac mixed with the dye of your choice if alcohol based.

 

As to BLO have always waited a week before applying finish as I think this comes from either Mickley or Flexnor.

[Danl]

When I use BLO and  a waterborne finish, I wait at least 3 days after applying BLO and seal it with a coat of wax free shellac.  Then apply the waterborne finish.  I believe the wait time for the BLO is dependent on humidity and temp.  Danl

[Michael Thuman]

On 8/23/2023 at 8:43 AM, kmealy said:

I have used a lot of waterborne finish, but not Minwax.  I've used stuff from Valspar, Sherwin-Williams, and General FInishes.  In all cases but one, I've sprayed it on with an HVLP sprayer.  Also be aware that w/b "Poly" I think is largely a marketing misnomer.  Most of the solids are acrylic.

 

Usually I have used a waterbased stain first.  If I was refinishing and suspected Pledge contamination, I would treat with SealCoat (2 lb cut dewaxed shellac) between the stain and the top coat as a barrier coat.  

 

I have recently read not to put waterborne finishes over linseed oil (at least directly), but I've never tried this, so cannot say.  But I would not venture into it.

 

Most any finish will result in a "wet" look and not a "dry" look.

 

When using any  new finish or technique - test on samples first.

 

Here is the one piece I've done that has no stain, red oak, GF EnduroVar.  Sorry, either the floor is slanted or the bulletin board on the wall is not level.

Keith thanks all the GF quart is here and when put on with a foam brush badly bubbled.

But that was a base coat over raw wood.

So I will let is cure sand it removing the bubbles and get some nylyon stocking from my spouse and a staining pad so that I can float on the finish per the GF demo on You tube.  

Keith I do not have an HVLP spray system.  

 

[kmealy]

22 hours ago, Danl said:

When I use BLO and  a waterborne finish, I wait at least 3 days after applying BLO and seal it with a coat of wax free shellac.  Then apply the waterborne finish.  I believe the wait time for the BLO is dependent on humidity and temp.  Danl

BLO "cures" by reacting with oxygen.   Reaction speeds roughly double for every 18F increase in temperature.  And good ventilation and/or moving air will help.

 

Years ago (before I knew much about finishing) I made some shaker oval boxes and finished with Danish oil (an oil-varnish blend).   The oil penetrated the 1/16" thick sides, not a problem but you could smell the finish for a long time when opening the lid.

[Michael Thuman]

Keith I am looking at HVLP and LVLP guns 

The compressor requirement exceed my portable air compressor.

What do you recommend for a way to coat a 2' x 2' table top?

I am not a wood working pro so this unit would get minimal use.

LVLP seem to be more suited for water based finishing but you mentioned you are using HVLP with water based finishes.

 

As I move away from solvent based finishes and into the water based I think I need to change my application standards.

Because it flashes over so fast.  It would be nice is some chemistry person could somehow stop water from evaporating as the current rate allowing water based finishes to work more like oil based finishes.

 

Edited August 25, 2023 by Michael Thuman
Updating content.

[Fred W. Hargis Jr]

This stuff, which doesn't get to the slow dry time of oil based finishes, still helps.

 

 

PS, the underlined words are a link...I guess the software changes made it appear that way.

Edited August 25, 2023 by Fred W. Hargis Jr

[Michael Thuman]

6 hours ago, Michael Thuman said:

Keith I am looking at HVLP and LVLP guns 

The compressor requirement exceed my portable air compressor.

What do you recommend for a way to coat a 2' x 2' table top?

I am not a wood working pro so this unit would get minimal use.

LVLP seem to be more suited for water based finishing but you mentioned you are using HVLP with water based finishes.

 

As I move away from solvent based finishes and into the water based I think I need to change my application standards.

Because it flashes over so fast.  It would be nice is some chemistry person could somehow stop water from evaporating as the current rate allowing water based finishes to work more like oil based finishes.

 

Has anyone ever used a Wagner sprayer?

I just did and with the finish sprayer the table top came out great.

Who knew a fairly cheat tool I got to spray my shop would work with clear finishes.

[Gerald]

3 hours ago, Michael Thuman said:

Has anyone ever used a Wagner sprayer?

I just did and with the finish sprayer the table top came out great.

Who knew a fairly cheat tool I got to spray my shop would work with clear finishes.

I have the old one for house paint but it is over thirty years old and close to that long since used, For projects look into a siphon sprayer such as the CRITTER SIPHON SPRAYER. For small stuff I use a small sirbrush.

[Fred W. Hargis Jr]

10 hours ago, Michael Thuman said:

Has anyone ever used a Wagner sprayer?

I just did and with the finish sprayer the table top came out great.

Who knew a fairly cheat tool I got to spray my shop would work with clear finishes.

I have the Wagner sprayer, and used it for several years (mostly with water borne finishes) before I got a turbine powered unit. It works well, though it took some practice and experimentation to figure out the best pressure. I have a tip, based on some unpleasant experience I had with mine...BE SURE you clean the water borne finish out of the gun completely once done. I didn't (once), and it was a super sized chore to get the dried finish cleaned off mine. The stuff is pretty resistant to most solvents. I suppose this would apply to all other types of guns as well.

Edited August 26, 2023 by Fred W. Hargis Jr