Gerald, when you say alcohol, you mean ethanol? Denatured alcohol?

 

My vote is no to the oil soap. Not mild enough; it'll deposit waxiness on the finish. 

 

Volumes have been written on the subject, all subjective. But, as I commented about the cleaning of a $200,000 violin, this sums it up:

 

I have observed very experienced luthiers at workshops spending days and days taking small q tips with varying combinations of solvents,cleaners, surfacants etc, trying to figure out what works without removing the varnish. 

 

https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/328720-question-cleaning-an-old-violin/#comment-590763

 

The hand rail to my 2nd floor has a varnish on it which has always been sticky; I'll eventually scrape to to wood. It's only been 20-some years ... I'll get around to it . . . 

I was thinking denatured as that works for the shellac I mix, but the shellac on instruments may be different.

1 hour ago, Gerald said:

shellac on instruments may be different.

I'd not doubt it. A pint of Behlen violin varnish was $22 in 2016, I think. In 2017 or so I priced specialty varnish makers who got $60-$80 for a 2 ounce jar of their special mix. Violin varnish is made to be very thin, elastic enough to move with the top, sturdy enough to last for hundreds of years.

I really do not want to beat this to death, but I'll add a few more thoughts for @wotmug

 

If the finish is gummy, something GGF used has evidently broken down for whatever reason. Sometimes people use whatever they want to use and it is fine for 20-40 years but eventually comes apart chemically. I know a fairly experienced luthier and shoe'er of horses who wiped the ebony headstock overlay on a $10,000 guitar with oil-based whatever. Right over top of the factory nitrocellulose. When I got the guitar maybe 20 years after he did that, and cleaned it up to replace some missing binding and level the frets, I was a little surprised. It had turned gummy; it does not adhere to nitro; looked like crap as it aged. Some things you just do not do.

 

Typical spirit violin varnishes do not get gummy (I've never heard of a spirit varnish becoming gummy but they do become brittle and flake).  I've handled maybe 3-4 dozen decent fiddles, including significant work to several definitely confirmed as 1890-1905.  You can lock that violin into the radio cabinet, get it out three decades later, tune it up, and play it.  Maybe a soft cloth to polish it. The finish is hard, smooth, getting a nice patina, maybe with a layer of dirt-embedded rosin, but the patina is rock hard.

 

To clean spirit varnish one uses a damp cloth, very mild soap, then a soft buff, and lots of elbow grease. Simple Green, well diluted, is approved. With experience, you can step up your agent. Naphtha is what I use, sometimes only a few drops on my buff, sometimes literally soaked. A buffing agent to remove residue.  I've also used NOVUS 2 Fine Scratch Remover on cured spirit varnish finishes; it is expensive but is great at removing blemishes.  I've also simply used Micromesh buffing pads to 12,000 grit, then a liquid buffing agent.

 

A linseed oil-based varnish, on the other hand, that would account for the problems. These days one would use the more stable BLO, but I've heard of raw oils breaking down. GGF may have mixed his own varnish or acquired a supply from another luthier; the varnish could have been applied too thickly and began to break down before it was cured. Maybe removing the varnish is the right answer *in this case*.

 

No one should be advising you on how to remove finish without personally examining the instrument. For all we know, it could be a $20,000 violin. Even if it is worth $800, or only $200, this is not the kind of advice you should get without inspection, or lacking that, without slowly testing the instrument at inconspicuous areas.

 

That disclaimer firmly out there, it is a firm NO to using alcohol on violin spirit varnish for cleaning. Just like you would not use paint thinner on an heirloom violin's oil varnish for cleaning (unless you really knew what you were doing). BUT if you want to remove the finish, the varnish, you'd figure out the base, then use that solvent. You'll end up with a flat finish, no sheen. The color will still be there, but lighter, sort of flat chalky looking. It's a good look IMHO.

 

The idea is that the very light wood vibrates. Thick finishes inhibit the tone from coming forth. So when you go to refinish the violin, you'd use something very light and thin. Stock violin spirit varnish, you'd dilute liberally. You'd practice first. It begins drying within seconds of application; the alcohol evaporates immediately; definitely a learning circle to spirit varnishes. You do not brush over areas to "straighten them out" but you can remove the varnish and start over. Thirty minutes is usually long enough for a thin spirit varnish to cure enough for recoating.

 

Doc sort of threw me out here like an expert, but I'm not. I'm a guy who was handed an $1,800 violin to fix when the local shop quoted $3,000. I did it for $400, and more work came in. I did a lot of trial and error, and took months to do a ten hour job. My advice is to proceed cautiously.

Luthiers and those like you, who extend the life of the Luthier's art, are a whole different breed of cat. And, those whose work I mightily admire. You guy's knowledge and, use of wood characteristics, tools of the trade, finishes and,  construction tricks and, techniques are superb. I've learned a lot by reading and watching videos about stringed instrument building and repairing. It has certainly altered my approach to many of my woodworking processes. 

Edit.

Below is an example of of one of the great luthier tools purchased that I wouldn't have known about had I not lurked on luthier sites. BTW, Stew-Mac is a great resource for some neat tools.

https://www.stewmac.com/luthier-tools-and-supplies/types-of-tools/files/dragon-hand-cut-rasp/?utm_source=delivra&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Dragon Rasp 4.2.22 - A&utm_id=3575719&utm_term=Hand-cut+teeth+with+BITE!&dlv-emuid=daa05f8e-ade1-4bb1-9c65-c7b4727db369&dlv-mlid=3575719

Edited April 2, 20224 yr by Gene Howe

15 minutes ago, Gene Howe said:

finishes

It goes on and on and on ... Doing a cello refurbishment, I wanted a bit of red pigment.  Went to a "known" luthier. This prosperous white-glove domestically-trained luthier gave me a shoe box of pigments c.1880-1940; he said it was in the shop when he took over.  (A few years later a 6th generation European-trained luthier told me he has over half a dozen of such boxes, gifted from widows of luthiers.)

 

Even with all of these choices, I could not get the colors right, eventually shelving the cello to focus on several weeks of pigments and finishes. Truth be told, I still do not have it right. Maybe after 4 years European study plus a decade apprenticeship with a big house, I might be considered minimally competent. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well along side me you certainly are. Just like any craft it's a life long journey not a sprint to the finish line. You already "learned" me lots of good stuff. Trick is recalling it when needed.

 

All those jars with their contents have a strong resemblance to the baby food we once fed

My daughter started playing the violin about a year ago in orchestra. I've been looking at old restoration projects on ebay in case I ever decided to commit and piddle with one. This thread was a home run for me to get started down the road if I try it 

On 4/1/2022 at 1:36 PM, Gerald said:

shellac can be refreshed with a light wipe of alcohol

An excellent point.  Considered risky on a violin because the finish is so thin. Musicians can be obsessive about the most minute change in the tone of their violin - any physical change in appearance changes provenance (value). A buddy's fiddle purchased for $125 in the 1960s is now worth $50,000; that maker's work turned out to be golden; friend is rightly obsessed with preserving the "provenance" of the instrument.

 

I have used alcohol on a finished fiddle's finish (but not yet on a finished Finnish fiddle's finish). Like the master plumber who uses Channellocks backwards on occasion to fit the need, it is a practice I've worked up to. Another tool in the tool box.

 

Use of a solvent on finished surfaces brought up another memory. Fingernail polish remover - acetone - is a No-Go on guitars. It will melt the finish in quick time. The finish on some Asian imports can be so thick, though, I've found that careful buffing with a soft cloth just slightly dampened with acetone may remove scuffs in the finish. The surface may be tacky for a bit but switching to a dry buff melds everything back together.

 

Micromesh buffing sticks were developed for fine art restoration - oil paintings. Which we also understand to have been "refreshed" with solvents since time immemorial. There is a place for everything. We work up to it.

 

  

 

 

 

Fascinating Jim.  Thanks for your taking the time and willingness to share with us.

On 4/3/2022 at 7:46 AM, Cal said:

 

Fascinating Jim.  Thanks for your taking the time and willingness to share with us.

+1 

On 4/3/2022 at 5:23 AM, Dovetail said:

finished fiddle's finish (but not yet on a finished Finnish fiddle's finish).

Don't know about any of this, but a box of finished Fiddle Faddle for fun works for me

I had looked for this a couple of times when this thread was going but couldn't find it. I just now found it and thought I'd throw it up here. I have a very large library of things I like in the art department saved on pinterest. I love stuff like this and really like the piece,..here is the info posted with the pic..

 

"This 18th-century violin makers shop by W. Foster Tracy, 1979, is a miniature built inside a full-size violin. It was on display at the Mini Time Machine Museum of Miniatures, Tucson, Arizona. All completed instruments and tools are fully functional in this model."

 

 

That's cool Aaron. Thanks for sharing.

46 minutes ago, aaronc said:

I had looked for this a couple of times when this thread was going but couldn't find it.

The Man had moved it 

 

Nice. I have fractionals to ¼ but no 1/64s like those. 

Pretty cool.  If I ever get to Tucson again it will be on my list of must do's...

10 minutes ago, Cal said:

Pretty cool.  If I ever get to Tucson again it will be on my list of must do's...

It's  an amazing place. The displays change every so often. But, there are several dioramas that seem to be permanent. Can you imagine The Last Supper carved on a #2 pencil? 

Wonder what a recording of those tiny instruments would sound like. Great pic

23 minutes ago, Gerald said:

Wonder what a recording of those tiny instruments would sound like. Great pic

Something out of "Sing Along With The Chipmunks" 

 

I've got a 3/4 which sounds far better than most beginner 4/4 violins, and a 1/2 and 1/4. The 1/2 is not bad but the 1/4 is a bit plywoody-sounding. They are all solid-wood German-built instruments of traditional design.

Speaking of fiddles, here's Brittany Haas performing New Camptown Races at Augusta 2013 Bluegrass Week with their All-Star staff.

 

Alan Bibey, right after Brit, is particularly good on mandolin as well.

 

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-iIEX5yeeo&t=93s