Main is a Square D

Circuit= garage door opener (motor & 2 led screw in light bulbs) & outside outlets & 2 led 4' shop lights. 

I took the gfci outlet out (Cooper) & replaced it with a duplex outlet. Not having a problem, it just was behind a cabinet and a PITA to reset when it tripped. Circuit breaker did not trip under load after the swap.

Took the regular circuit breaker out of the main panel & replaced it with a combination arc fault circuit interrupter ( 20 A QO120cafic).

Now when I plug in the door opener (with or without the bulbs) and/or the shop lights the new combination arc fault in the main panel trips. Plugging either into another circuit (golf cart gfci outlet) will not trip the outlet cfci.

So what's causing the breaker to trip?
Breaker won't trip w/o load.

What am I missing?
Thoughts, please. 

Thanks

 

smitty

ARTIE!!!! Where art thou?

Sounds like there’s a hot and common reversed somewhere.

1 hour ago, smitty10101 said:

Now when I plug in the door opener (with or without the bulbs)

..Doe's it trip with just the opener?

1 hour ago, smitty10101 said:

and/or the shop lights

Or only after you add the shop lights, or these separately without the opener plugged in?

Got it figured out!!!

 

I forgot(?)---never looked--- that there a 2 screws in a GFCI. One for the white & one for the black. You need both hooked up to the breaker.

Like a dummy I never looked!!!!

Well when you hook up the white to it's respective screw the breaker will work!! Imagine that!!

 

 

Thks guys

 

smitty

I got all excited, a subject I was knowledgeable on. Glad it’s working correctly now.

@artie

 

I'm being told that I need/should use a "dual function" breaker (AFCI/GFCI).

Your thoughts either pro or con.

Is there a difference in amount of the "trip" current ?

thks

smitty

I sent you a message, but in the interest of getting the info out to anyone following this thread I shall try to repeat it. GFCI protection measures the amount of current leaving and returning and when more leaves than returns (there are a couple of different levels depending on location/situation, but it’s all measured in milliamperes). This protection is for people, if for example there is a slice in an extension cord, you are standing barefoot in wet grass, operating your electric weed wacker, and your bare skin comes into contact with the hot wire in the cord, you are gonna complete the circuit to the grounded wet grass through YOU! GFCI would immediately trip (or at least it’s supposed to  ). AFCI protection some how measures arcs in an electrical circuit and trips if the arc is too high, not sure of the numbers. First two generations of AFCI were horrible! Fluorescent lighting tripped them, vacuum cleaners, and lots of other high draw equipment. The addition I just did for my friend had all wiring AFCI and GFCI protection as required by code. His 15 year old chop saw trips the AFCI every time he uses it. He has to find some of the wiring that was installed before the code changes to plug his saw into if he wants to use it. I do NOT have any AFCI at our home, I have LOTS of GFCI protection. I’m told that the latest generation of AFCI is almost working as it’s supposed to. I can’t advise anyone to circumnavigate or go against the NEC, but it appears that AFCI technology is owned by 4 companies, and after getting it mandated by the NEC it’s a 2 BILLION a year industry. Sometimes it’s better to have a dual protection receptacle so you don’t have to go to the panel to reset it, sometimes it’s better to have a $3 receptacle get replaced every couple of years than a $54 receptacle (like if the receptacle is outdoors). Any more questions, I’m happy to answer them (like if I know the answer  ) Lord knows I’ve had more than my share of woodworking questions answered here.  

2 hours ago, Artie said:

I’m happy to answer them

I have several GCFI thingies, in the years that they have been installed only one I had issue with was one that was tied into the circuit I use my small frig for in the back building.  For 3 months I chased a electrical short along that circuit.  Turns out I had a outdoor outlet that was half full of water after a heavy rain or days of rain.  Fixed that and no problems since.  But couple years later the GCFI would trip rain or shine.  On w him I changed the GCFI with a new one and the problem did not return.  

 

So do they wear out over time, or if they get engaged a few times?  3 other ones in house same age and they have never given any issue.  

U.S. National Electrical Code NEC Article 110.3 (B) requires GFCI testing - excerpt:

110.3 Examination, Identification, Installation, and Use of Equipment
(B) Installation and Use.
Equipment must be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling requirements.

 

Most manufacturers recommend that gfci receptacles be tested monthly as stated in the paper work included, but who really reads that. Some gfci's have a chip built into them and act like a one time fuse. If the plug has not been tested in over a year the chip recognizes that and the next time it is tripped or tested it won't reset. Like @Artie stated these companies can control their own demand & sales.

Some state health care inspections require maintenance workers to keep logs that show the gfci's were tested according to manufactures recommendations. Osha can issue fines to companies for not doing the same.  

 Square D put out a report a few years back and admitted that some of their breakers would not trip when left in the "on" position over a long period of time. They now recommend that the breakers be exercised, off/on, at least once a year. To me this makes sense because unless I need to turn a breaker off or it trips some can be in the same "on" position for years. I have gotten into the habit of turning all my breakers off & on when I change batteries in the smokes.

11 hours ago, Artie said:

in the interest of getting the info out to anyone following this thread 

This whole thread is on a Square D main panel & breakers.

 

Ok--- the whole problem started b/c my band saw would occasionally trip the GFCI---became a PITA b/c the outlet was behind a floor cabinet. Cause is unknown---maybe dust in the winding causing an arc(?), dust in the switch(?)---[nope changed the switch], bad brushes, bad commutator, etc, ???

 

So now I have an AFCI in the main panel. Haven't hooked up the band saw yet so time will tell.

 

Artie you  stated in the PM that NEC codes changes "every 3 years"----so what date of manufacture should we be looking for to lessen the likelihood of trouble with annoying tripping (of the electrical equipment, not with drugs).

What to do if/when our tools start to cause havoc by tripping the GFCI, AFCI, AFCI/GFCI ?? {I'm tired of alphabet soup}.

 

Also to those of us who have newer houses----it seems that you can now put a GFCI outlet & a AFCI breaker in series. Remember previously (and possibly currently) you couldn't put 2 GFCI's into the same circuit--IIRC. So if something trips there is a possibility we will need to check in two locations to find the place to reset.

 

1 hour ago, smitty10101 said:

What to do if/when our tools start to cause havoc by tripping the GFCI, AFCI, AFCI/GFCI ??

 Its common to have nuisance trips with these devices when running motors. This is the reason they aren't used on receptacles that feed a refrigerator. I would try a standard receptacle.

19 hours ago, Woodbutcherbynight said:

I have several GCFI thingies, in the years that they have been installed only one I had issue with was one that was tied into the circuit I use my small frig for in the back building.  For 3 months I chased a electrical short along that circuit.  Turns out I had a outdoor outlet that was half full of water after a heavy rain or days of rain.  Fixed that and no problems since.  But couple years later the GCFI would trip rain or shine.  On w him I changed the GCFI with a new one and the problem did not return.  

 

So do they wear out over time, or if they get engaged a few times?  3 other ones in house same age and they have never given any issue.  

Outside receptacles tend to break down quickly. GFCI’s can lose their ability to correctly meter the amps, surges, nearby lightning strikes. 

11 hours ago, DuckSoup said:

U.S. National Electrical Code NEC Article 110.3 (B) requires GFCI testing - excerpt:

110.3 Examination, Identification, Installation, and Use of Equipment
(B) Installation and Use.
Equipment must be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling requirements.

 

Most manufacturers recommend that gfci receptacles be tested monthly as stated in the paper work included, but who really reads that. Some gfci's have a chip built into them and act like a one time fuse. If the plug has not been tested in over a year the chip recognizes that and the next time it is tripped or tested it won't reset. Like @Artie stated these companies can control their own demand & sales.

Some state health care inspections require maintenance workers to keep logs that show the gfci's were tested according to manufactures recommendations. Osha can issue fines to companies for not doing the same.  

 Square D put out a report a few years back and admitted that some of their breakers would not trip when left in the "on" position over a long period of time. They now recommend that the breakers be exercised, off/on, at least once a year. To me this makes sense because unless I need to turn a breaker off or it trips some can be in the same "on" position for years. I have gotten into the habit of turning all my breakers off & on when I change batteries in the smokes.

Testing? Pushing the test button? Or with a UL listed gfci tester? They used to have a monthly check sheet included in the boxes. (Also used to give you a plate ) .

 I think the idea here is to exercise the trip mechanism. The company provides the test button so I would believe this is an acceptable method.

10 hours ago, smitty10101 said:

This whole thread is on a Square D main panel & breakers.

 

Ok--- the whole problem started b/c my band saw would occasionally trip the GFCI---became a PITA b/c the outlet was behind a floor cabinet. Cause is unknown---maybe dust in the winding causing an arc(?), dust in the switch(?)---[nope changed the switch], bad brushes, bad commutator, etc, ???

 

So now I have an AFCI in the main panel. Haven't hooked up the band saw yet so time will tell.

 

Artie you  stated in the PM that NEC codes changes "every 3 years"----so what date of manufacture should we be looking for to lessen the likelihood of trouble with annoying tripping (of the electrical equipment, not with drugs).

What to do if/when our tools start to cause havoc by tripping the GFCI, AFCI, AFCI/GFCI ?? {I'm tired of alphabet soup}.

 

Also to those of us who have newer houses----it seems that you can now put a GFCI outlet & a AFCI breaker in series. Remember previously (and possibly currently) you couldn't put 2 GFCI's into the same circuit--IIRC. So if something trips there is a possibility we will need to check in two locations to find the place to reset.

 

You would really only need one device to provide protection for the entire circuit. They make combo breakers and receptacles now. AFCI and GFCI in one device. Was the bandsaw tripping the GFI (I usually leave out the C) on start up? While running? Or after being shutdown/turned off? Adding AFI should not affect GFI issues. Won’t make it worse, won’t make it better. I’m not know all, be all, but I’ve been a sparky for the last 42 years. Every once in a while I’ve seen a gfi go bad and start tripping for no reason, pretty rare. Usually when they go bad, they just stop tripping (much more dangerous for the user). If a panel is far away or in another building, one may install a gfi receptacle to replace the first receptacle and wire the rest of the circuit through it, giving the rest of the circuit downstream from it gfi protection. If your bandsaw is tripping the gfi on a somewhat regular basis, the easiest and cheapest remedy is replacing the gfi (especially if it’s fairly old). My experience has been that I’ve never replaced a defective gfi with a new one that was bad. If you replace the gfi and the new one still trips, there is an issue with the bandsaw, or the wiring to it. You can have an afi breaker, and have the first receptacle be a gfi to provide dual protection for the circuit. GFI protection is mostly meant for wiring that is plugged into receptacles, AFI protection is for the wiring in the circuit itself, plus any wiring/devices that are plugged in. A gfi tripping is telling you that somehow some amperage leaving the breaker/receptacle is not making it back to the breaker/receptacle. One example I have seen is a stand up paddle fan, plugged into a gfi receptacle, outside on the porch. When it was off, and a wind was blowing strong enough to get the fan spinning, would trip the gfi. Wind spinning a fan kinda turns the motor into a generator. This can induce voltage/current into the circuit. The fan is off so only one of the two wires can carry this induced electricity back to the gfi, thus tripping the gfi. The person said the blades had to be spinning rather quickly for this to happen.  

6 minutes ago, DuckSoup said:

 I think the idea here is to exercise the trip mechanism. The company provides the test button so I would believe this is an acceptable method.

I didn’t mean it to come across like I was giving you a hard time. This is an issue that comes up for discussion every 3 years when we have to take our code update classes. The manufacturer intends for you to use their button too test it. The CODE however does state at how many milliamperes the gfi has to trip at. The electrical inspector of the municipality I work for has a gfi tester that he plugs into all gfis and then presses his button. This bleeds off the exact amount of milliamperes that the gfi is required to trip at. Some of the gfi’s won’t trip from the external testing device, but will trip from their own button. FAIL.

1 hour ago, Artie said:

Was the bandsaw tripping the GFI  on start up?

On start up only. Would hear a snap sound occasionally. Today I took the cover off the motor, vacuumed out what I could reach, blew it out also----against my better judgement. When I started it up I could see it spark between the stator & the commutator but at different places when I repeated the start up. If it continues and REALLY pi$$es me off I'll take the motor apart & look at it

 

1 hour ago, Artie said:

cheapest remedy is replacing the gfi (especially if it’s fairly old).

House was built in late 2015 & the offending GFI was in the garage so only subjected to hot & cold but no weather.

 

Going to live with it the way it is for a while. We rarely (extremely rarely) use the outside outlets so I'll gamble that we won't need it as a GFI

1 hour ago, Artie said:

You would really only need one device to provide protection for the entire circuit. They make combo breakers and receptacles now.

Only have the AFCI on the circuit now, took out the GFI. I've seen the combo units. Moved the purchase of the combo down the list a bit until I see how things shake out.

3 hours ago, Artie said:

nearby lightning strikes. 

We did take one very close and it wiped out a majority of the modems , PC's and laptops in the neighborhood.  I had two laptops and a modem replaced in our place.  Looked at the date I replaced GFI, one month after the strike.  

  Artie, my original post was in response to woodbutcher question:

On 3/12/2020 at 10:33 PM, Woodbutcherbynight said:

So do they wear out over time, or if they get engaged a few times?  3 other ones in house same age and they have never given any issue.  

  I did not see that he had quoted you and if by me replying to his post I offended you I appoligize. 
 I gave in my reply experiences that I had encountered during my 34 years as an IBEW commerical electrician.
 I also spent 8 hours every 3 years in code classes. You & I both know that the AHJ always gets the last word.
 I have ask more than my fair share of questions here as well and was just offering what I could when I could.
 Again, if I offended you I apoligize.