So I woke up and was working on a nameplate carving, with the Dremel hand craving kills my hands, when a question from art school came into my head. With the advancement in modern technology where do you draw the line between traditional methods and more modern stream lined methods. For example hand planing, some swear by it, some don’t even own a hand plane. Or carbide tipped turning tools that you don’t have to sharpen vs. HSS that you still have to work the craft of sharpening. In the art world they are always going back and forth on what’s considered an appropriate middle ground between the methods of traditionalism and modernism. Was just curious what people’s views are, as it applies to woodworking of course.  Personally ever tool has a purpose it was built for and as long as that purpose is fulfilled the tool could care less. So use what’s best for the job at hand. Tons of boards for bee hives break out the thickness planer. Center piece for the living room made from exotic lumber that makes your wallet cry out, break out the irons and strop. But thats my thoughts anyway.

Most of us are hybrids. We use whatever gets us to the point we're aiming for. Be that with hand planes or powered planers, hand saws or table saws and band saws, carving knives or a Dremel. Many say the journey is 99% of the enjoyment. I agree but, I would rather ride than trudge. 

I've read several different thoughts on this subject, especially with the introduction of affordable CNC and Laser devices. As you said the opinions fall generally in the traditionalist or modern thinking camps. I always think of the Shakers. Most folks think of them as traditionalist; making simple, serviceable items. Yet, they are credited with developing many time saving devices. I, personally, "vote" with my wallet. If I can afford it, then it is the right tool for the job.  Who knows, maybe in 20 years we will be using 3-D printers creating actual wooden pieced. After all, they just recently printed a working mouse heart using biological materials.

9 minutes ago, lew said:

I, personally, "vote" with my wallet. If I can afford it, then it is the right tool for the job. 

Lol yea there’s probably more truth to that statement then any other thought out there. 

For anyone in the business of woodworking, it’s gotta be bottom line, what’s more profitable/better for business (or at least 90% of the people in business would think that way). For those not making their living at it, I would say it’s whatever gives you the most satisfaction, this of course would differ greatly between each of us. Only thing stopping me from having a CNC machine is money. Money to buy a place large enough to set one up, and money to pay for one, with all the trimmings. I don’t think for people in the non-professional side, there is a wrong answer. 

I think that it is an individual choice. Like Gene I am a hybrid woodworker. However, I lean more towards the traditionalist side of the discussion.

 

I can reach for a hand tool and do an operation and get an end result. Sometimes quicker than setting up a machine and performing the operation. I don't mind using hand planes or chisels. Others may not be physically able or mentally inclined to do so...but guess what? I own a thickness planer and a jointer, also. I even have a shaper tucked into the corner if needed. Try and steal my table saw and you might leave in a horizontal position.

 

As for CNC's, well, I'm a little on the controversial side. I see some beautiful and talented, imaginative, results from some people, but I don't personally consider a CNC real woodworking. Again, the traditionalist side. To each his own, if you can't carve, then CNC is the way to go.

 

On the other hand, there are some great uses for a CNC; creating complex components, cutting circles, etc. I see CNC as creating a computer program, not making something with your hands. Just because you own a self driving car, doesn't mean you are a competent driver/operator. With all of that said, CNC are here, do have their place, and can be useful. I just don't see one in my shop anytime soon.

I believe most are and will always be hybrids of the two sides. There are just some things you can’t do by hand like cutting exact repeatable circles and there’s other things that are better left to hand tools. Got to love my block plane when I’m rounding edges. With that being said I’m learning that I lean more towards a traditional approach but I’m not doing it for money and time isn’t a issue so much. So I’m not motivated to push work out with the quickness. To be honest I’m not even sure if I’d even call it a traditional approach even.  More of a I don’t have the tool for that how can I do it with a router, can’t do it with a router....well figured it and make it happen.

 

On a side note I’m finding I really have a unhealthy obsession with my router and the lathe isn’t to far being it. 

1 minute ago, Mijohnson1984 said:

I believe most are and will always be hybrids of the two sides. There are just some things you can’t do by hand like cutting exact repeatable circles and there’s other things that are better left to hand tools. Got to love my block plane when I’m rounding edges. With that being said I’m learning that I lean more towards a traditional approach but I’m not doing it for money and time isn’t a issue so much. So I’m not motivated to push work out with the quickness. To be honest I’m not even sure if I’d even call it a traditional approach even.  More of a I don’t have the tool for that how can I do it with a router, can’t do it with a router....well figured it and make it happen.

 

On a side note I’m finding I really have a unhealthy obsession with my router and the lathe isn’t to far being it. 

"...a router"! Ah, grasshopper, have you never heard the saying "you can never have too many clamps"? Well, having "a router" is like owning only one clamp.

Lol I told my wife that one day the walls will have nothing but clamps and planes still doesnt believe me. I actually have two ones out for repair. Silly silly triton can’t hold its depth. Looks at another one for trim work.  Well that or another drill probably the drill first. You know something Tim the tool man Taylor could approve of. Lol 

Technology equals money. On both ends. For most hobbyists, the front end is paramount. For me it's money AND the intellectual acuity to make use of the tool. I'm a bit short of both. 

A friend showed me a beautiful Aztec calendar he carved with a CNC. It fit in the palm of his hand. He turns them out by the hundreds along with personalized pistol grips that are also gorgeous. He uses a big laser, as well. He has over 20K in machines. Not including the few woodworking machines he needs to prepare stock. He has customers all over the world. He says he recouped his machine costs in his first year of business. I've seen some of what he does to program to carve a pair of pistol grips. They get carved and lasered. I consider that an art. 

Matt,

 

A good deal will depend on who is asked, a hobbyist or a shop owner. From my hobby end of things I enjoy learning new skills and that can be mastering the use of a router or hand planning something that sandpaper can't match. That's actually what attracted me to hand planes. My father-in-law left me some when he passed away and after taking the time to look at them, clean them up, and tune them, I realized that that #4 was giving me results that were far better than I had with sanding. In fact I thought if I used sandpaper on it I might roughen it up.

 

But I'm also a realist and that leads to two points. As I age I've likely less time than I use to so machinery will help me accomplish the task faster. Buth there's another side of it as well, as an amatuer astronomer I know it wouldn't take much to bring our power grid down and then all those fancy power tools are useless. For those who have mastered or at least gotten some skills with the hand tools will continue to produce while others will struggle. Remember it only takes a powerful solar flare to do a massive amount of damage. It's not an if but rather when question.

 

That said, it may not happen in our lifetime.....but the skills won't hurt knowing either. I remember watching almost memorised as the workers were replicating the furniture of old Colonial Williamsburg with tools of that era. There was a wall of planes that most had a single purpose to make a certain cut. Had I had any sense and would have I would have worked a summer there for free just to learn some of those skills. So now I'm trying to implement use of both or as Gene said "hybrid" shop so I can use both to my advantage. Would I get rid of my table or band saw? No way but it doesn't hurt knowing how to work without them.....

 

As stated above, a shop owner has a bottom line to compete with. Time is money and everybody wants the best deal. Thankfully I'm retired and don't have to deal with that.

 

-Steve

Probably should have clarified the topic betting in that original post. But I like more open ended discussion like this.  Business is business, so the need for quick fast and repeatable is a given. Unless your selling handmade furniture that’s never have a machince touch it.  That is your what demographic your product is that, but that’s a horse of a different color.  You’ve entered into a specialty market that I can’t imagine makes a lot but enough more then enough to live on. But I’m not sure really, would have to ask around to see if that is profitable or not. As for tradition I’ve always been fascinated by watching old traditional blacksmithing reminds me of planing when you get in that repetitive motion and your mind kind of just empty’s.  Wait I have nothing up there anyway.  On another off topic One of these days I’m going to start a bible study that is based on traditional woodworking techniques from biblical era Jerusalem. (Not sure I’m saying that correctly) But first i need to learn what I’m doing  

Edited April 18, 20197 yr by Mijohnson1984

Ok the clarification just served to confuse me. As to pro or hobbyist some on both sides. Look at Follansbee , Underhill , and Schwarz for hand tools even tho Chris does use powersaws. The whole thing is what you want to do, how you want the final product to look and how much time you have to get there.

 

Example Our sponsor Easy Wood Tools makes some fine tools but I can get a better finish with Hunter carbides. Carbide is nice but learn to sharpen and the pleasure of turning comes to the front and after all we say is that not the reason we do this.  Even finer finish with gouges and some wood scrapers , especially negative rake. And then all of these depend on the type of turning I am doing from Bowls (gouges & Scrapers) to hollowforms (use all of the above).

 

Again the quick may leave you with more sanding to do and who wants to do that?

 

Repeatable in precision is a question mark. No matter how close the cutting tolerances wood moves and wood from different parts of the tree move differently.  So those two boxes that were cut exactly the same and fitted together the same may measure differently in a month and really what does it matter.

 

To repeat myself pleasure in working with wood is why I have all those tools and shop.

 

Oh and speaking of pleasure. Notice the paragraphs in this post. That is what makes reading a pleasure and if more of y'all will do that your post will be much more readable and for some understandable , not to name any names.

I believe that a creative person, with time and money to do their hobby, craft, skill, will not use any of the computer driven devices. They like the "old way"  However when I create things on my lathe, I use a device to control speed, a solid state light control, a digital caliper, etc. I happily accept things that make my skills better, not things that replace my skills. As for CNC, they serve a purpose and it isn't a simple device. If you read instructions and do it right you can set up some great projects.............and the machine will do the rest. I'm OK with that, but I'll not have one.

Lol I’m sorry @GeraldI hadn’t clarified the original post. I was just making a statement that I should have done that in the first place. 

 

As for your l confusion that is my fault between my bad grammar and my tendency to hop subjects when I’m typing. It can be rather difficult to follow at times. Normally I have the better half proof read but she’s at work.  So I’ll try to explain what I meant.

When it comes down to the business side of any craft you have to find the quickest and most cost effective way to complete orders. Preference is a secondary concern.  Unless your business model is centered around a unique product or process. But that isn’t really the point. Or at least it wasn’t my original goal of the post. 

The original posts was a open ended question because I tend to enjoy conversations that bring up other conversations or in these case bring up something I hadn’t even though about it. It honestly didn’t occur to me to think about the business side woodworking. 

 

Now to address your reply you bring up our sponsors easy tools. Your right they make an amazing product one I plan on buying when I can. They have there place in the tool rack and they are designed to work differently then traditional HSS. Hence the learning curve everyone talks about. But increasingly you see people that want to exclude traditional methods in favor or more modern approaches.  I was just curious about what people though is an appropriate middle ground between traditional woodworking methods and more modern methods. 

 

Your completely correct in the statement that the quick may lead to more sanding. I restored a butcher block and learned it the hard (twice). 

 

As for the precision. A tool is only as smart as it’s operator. Or at least I’ve been told that by more then one seasoned hand in the oil field. So basically no matter how precise the machine if the operator is less then precise you’ll have mistakes. And since that machine was built by people who are less then precise It will have its share of problems. But, are they more capable of repeatable work. That is very much a yes free hand draw 50 lines and no two lines will be the same. Program the machine to do it and you’ll end up with two or more that are a far sight closer then hand drawn. 

 

But when it comes to wood your correct it moves and shifts. Expands and contracts what it measures today it might not measure the same tomorrow. Or in a hour sometimes. 

 

I dont think anyone here does this just because. everyone here does it for the love of the craft or the peace it brings them. If I somehow implied otherwise I’m sorry that was never the point. The point was just to get people thinking about how they go about there work flow. And to chat about differences in style/approach. 

5 hours ago, Mijohnson1984 said:

So I woke up and was working on a nameplate carving

AND Discovered you were working on the carving???

4 hours ago, Gene Howe said:

Most of us are hybrids.

yup...

started out 100% hand and migrated into 99% power and have gone into hybrid now..

Your thoughtful posts are great conversation starters. Being open ended, as you inrended, they lead to some interesting and enjoyable discussions. Makes for pleasurable reading while the first coat of finish gets dry enough to sand.

21 minutes ago, Stick486 said:

AND Discovered you were working on the carving???

I know right I try to do something simple and artistic before I start something that requires more attention. Which I have a very small amount of. 

35 minutes ago, Gene Howe said:

Your thoughtful posts are great conversation starters. Being open ended, as you inrended, they lead to some interesting and enjoyable discussions. Makes for pleasurable reading while the first coat of finish gets dry enough to sand.

The wife says I just like to stir things up. Not sure if she meant stirring the stain or the polyurethane.....😎