Raising the grain question

[lew]

I'm building a child's high chair out of maple. Going to use water based "poly". I've sanded all of the pieces thru 150.

 

Should I raise the grain now? And if so do I spray water on the pieces or wipe them with a wet rag. In the past, I've applied the first coat of poly, which raised the grain, sanded and then applied additional coats. I thought about using a Shellac primer but wanted to keep the maple about the same color.

 

Any tips/ideas will be greatly appreciated.

[kmealy]

I'm of the opinion that "pre-raising the grain" is not always effective.   I put on the first coat of shellac, if I'm using it, then w/b finish and just let it raise the grain as it will.   Then once dry (30 minutes shellac, 1 hr w/b) its hard and I just sand my between the coats sanding with P400 sandpaper and light gray Scotch-Brite pad.  I guess I should say sometimes I sand the shellac first and sometimes I just put on the first coat of w/b, then sand.   If I'm doing a varnish on the shellac, then yes, I sand the shellac first. 

 

This is called "burying the grain."     The finish stiffens any raised fibers and lets you cut them off.   Even if you "pre raise the grain" there's some chance the first coat of finish is going to raise it again, so you have to do the in-between coat sanding anyway.

[lew]

Thanks! That will save a step!

[John Morris]

34 minutes ago, kmealy said:

I'm of the opinion that "pre-raising the grain" is not always effective.

Agreed, about the only time I'll pre raise grain is using water based dyes. Even that is questionable, the first coat of finish is going to raise grain anyway, and you always sand between coats, so what's the use. I am sure in some cases it's necessary, but I think it's one of the most over used finishing steps. but it does have a nice ring to it don't it? "Raise the Grain!" Cool!

[Snailman]

+1 on what's been said.  I'm working on a piece for my wife now, and am using water based dye.  I did a test board, raising the grain 1st, not raising the grain, and applying a 2nd dye coat sanding between coats, and applying a 2nd coat, not sanding between coats, and doing a sanding after the 2nd coat.  I found I the results to be pretty close across the board, although, not sanding till the end seemed to take off additional color. 

 

I opted for the no 'pre-raise' approach, applied the 1st dye coat, sanded and applied the 2nd dye coat.  In the morning, I plan on doing a quick light sanding to knock down the grain, apply a spit coat of shellac, and then a water born topcoat.  I'll post pictures once done.  So far, I'm really happy with the results from the water born dye.

[lew]

Thanks for all of the comments. I really appreciate them!

[Gene Howe]

Another myth debunked.  

Thanks for the question, Lew. And, thanks for the answers guys. Gonna save me and lots of others some time.

Now, along the same line, I'm guessing water based sanding sealer isn't necessary, either?

Edited November 17, 2017 by Gene Howe

[John Morris]

55 minutes ago, Gene Howe said:

I'm guessing water based sanding sealer isn't necessary, either?

Gene, I have stayed away from sanding sealers strictly out of laziness. I feel it waste of time to use a sealer as a first coat if you are going to follow up with more coats. The first coat of anything you use, will seal the wood. I know there are exceptions when treating lumber such as cherry to prevent blotching, but for the most part, why. Just use your first coat of varnish as the sealer. One thing for sure, the sanding sealer market sure has marketed itself hasn't it!

[Gene Howe]

6 minutes ago, John Morris said:

Gene, I have stayed away from sanding sealers strictly out of laziness. I feel it waste of time to use a sealer as a first coat if you are going to follow up with more coats. The first coat of anything you use, will seal the wood. I know there are exceptions when treating lumber such as cherry to prevent blotching, but for the most part, why. Just use your first coat of varnish as the sealer. One thing for sure, the sanding sealer market sure has marketed itself hasn't it!

Thanks for confirming my thoughts, John. I've used it on open grained stuff, like red oak, prior to a grain filler. It doesn't seem to make a difference. 

[kmealy]

28 minutes ago, Gene Howe said:

Now, along the same line, I'm guessing water based sanding sealer isn't necessary, either?

 

The first coat of any finish seals the wood.

 

And I always sand between coats of finish with varnish, w/b or shellac.

 

Factories use a sanding sealer, if at all, because it can speed production -- sanding sealer sands a little faster.

But --

• Sanding sealer reduces the water resistance of the finish
• If left on too thick, it can fracture and you have a mess.   I had to work on one piece several times because in the showroom, it had gottne a lot of chips that showed up as white spots.   I had to sand all the way down through the finish and most of the sealer to get it fixed.   Then three weeks later, it had more spots in areas that I hadn't done the first time.   At the first time, I tried to get the store owner to just let me strip and refinish the top.   That, in the end, would have been a lot less time and effort.

[BillyJack]

We/I don't skip sanding sealers. Some finishes don't have sanding sealers and yet we will still create them...

 

Skipping a step doesn't make you a professional but rather a hack....

 

Your call................

 

 

 

Edited November 18, 2017 by BillyJack

[John Morris]

10 minutes ago, BillyJack said:

Skipping a step doesn't make you a professional but rather a hack....

@BillyJack, many on here do skip the step of sanding sealer, calling them hacks, is not a good way to get along on a forum that is virtually ego free, and very friendly. Please modify your statement to reflect a more positive attitude and a more helpful tone. Thank you sir.

[Al B]

I agree with Keith, the first coat is a sealer, except possibly when using a dye. Guess I'm a happy hack. I'm OK with that. I thought I had responded to this topic earlier. I must not have clicked on "Submit".  I have been wiping water based poly finishes on my band saw boxes . The water based poly is thin to begin with and I have found no issues with wiping it on. I turned to the water based urethane to save time. Since the drying time is much faster, it allows me to apply more coats over a shorter time period. I apply my first coat, and once dry, I sand to remove the raised grain. I then apply 3 coats and sand lightly, then 3 coats and sand lightly again. Finally apply 2 coats to finish. I use old cut up T-shirts for wiping pads.

Edited November 19, 2017 by It Was Al B

[Larry Jenkins]

IMHO, hard woods do not need the grain raised.  Maybe certain species of soft wood.  If you "finish the finish," not needed at all.  I just don't use water based top coats.  Speed never results in your best work.

 

Larry

[Smallpatch]

Here I am thinking maybe it is the area I live in for I have never worried about having any grain to stand up to have to worry about. But also back when every day I was involved with wood finishing I never heard the word water based..

  The first time I encountered water based something was contact cement and that taught me a lesson right then....

 So yes I do wonder when guys talk about grain raising. But I also wonder about lots of things guys talk about and girls too for that matter..

  I always thought if people had grain moving around on them and standing up then maybe they should only use hardwood and then they might not have that trouble anymore!! Either that or else maybe use a different approach to finishing.

[Fred W. Hargis Jr]

Jesse, years ago (many years ago, like in the early 60's) I read a lot of outdoor publications, including gun magazines. I always wanted a custom rifle made like the writers described. Back then it was always a hand fitted stock with a "rubbed oil finish" (whatever that was) and the stock most often was "whiskered" 3-4 times before the finish was applied. That was usually described as lightly applying water to get the grain to stand up, and then sanding it back....and repeat. That was the first time I had heard of it, and never heard it mentioned outside of the gunstock circle. It (raised grain) did get a lot more mention with water borne finishes, but truthfully other finishes will raise the grain, just not nearly as much...most of the time it's not even noticed.

[Smallpatch]

Fred you are completely correct.  Most all the time in my shop I was refinishing and not starting with new wood..I would go the complete route first by stripping the old finishes completely. I realized I could not leave any small bit of the old finish along the inside corners so I always used a wash down after all the finish was off and gone . The wash down was using lots of lacquer thinner and 0000 steel wool. 

   I do remember some of the gun stock perfection nuts used 100% tung oil. One good friend would  thin each coat and spend hours rubbing...He never wanted anyone to learn his way but his stocks would always stand out over any others at gun shows.  I did start to use tung oil because of him anywhere wet towels or rags were hung to dry and still use it today...Another thing I found after building the pots and pan rack over the sink in this house is there is no scuff or discolor marks where the welding rods wrap over the ash wood that has been treated with the 100% tung oil... And there is lots of movement going on on top and sides of the ash dowel each time something is removed or put back up on the rack... Strange for this is the first for me to not get marks on the wood I have ever installed..

 

Maybe I sanded all my new wood better or differently as to not have to worry about fibers standing up enough to bug me. Once I learn the character of a certain wood I tend to stick with it for a long time. Maple and ash is my main woods. There is lot of mesquite and oak in these parts but I shy away from both..Mesquite has way too much waste in new wood and I give oak a bad name because of my refinishing days.. All the really old antique  furniture is solid wood. Walnut and mahogany were perfect to work with where the solid oak furniture had more warped and split wood than all the rest I ever worked on. An oak dresser lots of times had a crack the complete length of the top. The old gradual warps from many years of use would cause more work than customers thought they should pay to correct.