My son recently purchased a home and asked me if I would install an exterior electrical box/receptacle near his patio.  The best place to rout power is from the garage door opener receptacle.  I noticed that the wire to the garage door opener receptacle is 12 gauge and the receptacle is rated 15 amp.  When I traced the line to the breaker for the garage door opener, the breaker was 15 amp.  The wire from the main panel routed under the basement steps to a junction box which had other (newer) 12-gauge wires coming out of it.  The house was built in 1971 and the basement remodeled probably in 2003 and I am sure the owner did not pull a permit.  The main panel is not original.

Questions:

I plan to pull the main panel cover to verify the wire gauge to the suspect breaker and I believe I will see that it will be a 12 gauge. 

1)     Should I replace this breaker with a 20-amp breaker?  I do believe it is feeding all 12-gauge wires, but I do not know this for certain.

2)     Do I change out the garage door opener receptacle to one that is rated for 20 amps if I change out the breaker?

3)     If I leave the 15-amp breaker, what gauge wire do I run to the new exterior box, 12 gauge or 14-gauge?

Danl

1.) not necessarily....my understanding is it's perfectly OK to have oversized wire. Besides there may be some 14 G. wire on the circuit you haven't found.

2.) Nope, unless you have some 20 amp plugs you want to plug in (the stabs are configured differently).

3.) you might want to go ahead an keep it at 12 gauge, but if you change the breaker to 20, then you need to make it 12 g.

 

Someone will be along to correct any mistakes I made.

Older houses had it right. 12 guage wire would handle the loads. Sure 14 work and may be code but why screw with it?  Stay with 12 guage. Doubt you need to upgrade the breaker or receptacles.  

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.  And if it ain't burned down since 71, the odds are in your sons favor. Chances are it won't burn tomorrow.

Understanding your question I think DanL, if you are going to add another box at the patio, feeding off your main, then you are concerned about the extra load the additional box may draw? It might not be as easy as "if it aint broke don't fix it " all due respect Jess. But the man is asking if he should upgrade the old wires to accommodate the additional box in the patio, I am not an electrician, but I just wanted to get your question cleared up so when a legit sparky @Artie gets on here, we can be clear.

Thanks for posting DanL!

I needed some extra bench lighting (LED) in the garage.  Like you, the best feed was from the opener receptacle.  Asked a master electrician friend and he said it was fine to take power from opener.  Aside from that, I'll defer to @Artie and the others.

What does your son plan to run off of the receptacle box he want's added?

If it's just to have power for a radio etc. when they're out on the patio 15 AMP would be fine.

There are very few household appliances that require 20 AMP @ 115 VOLTS.

I’ll chime in, If all the other wiring on the circuit appears to be 12 gauge, stay with 12 gauge no matter what. if the garage door opener receptacle is a separate circuit, code is it needs to stay a separate circuit. (Appliance specific circuit, just like you wouldn’t add other loads to a dishwasher circuit, for example). The label on the garage door opener should have an amperage draw on it. If it’s on a 15 amp circuit, it should be less than a 12 amp draw. If the load on the newly added patio outlet exceeds 4-6 amps while the garage door is being opened, could (maybe should) pop the breaker. If you decide to add the outlet, and can verify that all wiring on the circuit is 12 gauge, keep it all 12 gauge and upgrade to a 20 amp breaker. This would give the garage door opener it’s original 1 5 amps (which has been working all these years) and still have 5 amps for the new outlet. I actually had an inspector fail me on a job where I tapped off the washing machine receptacle for a light overhead. The washing machine was on a 20 amp circuit, and I used 12 gauge wiring to the light. I showed him a copy of my Massachusetts electrical code book (we make minor changes to the NEC, and call it the MEC) which has an exception to the rule that circuits for specific appliances can’t be used for anything else. In this case a washing machine circuit can also supply an overhead light for the washer. He agreed with me and passed the job. My personal opinion is if the new outlet is for general use, you would not be creating a hazard by doing this, but it will not be according to NEC. If all wiring is 12 gauge it is all rated for 20 amp. You can’t overload the wiring. You can overload the breaker, but that actually can happen on almost any household general outlet circuit. (Example-Furnace dies, plug in 2 portable electric heaters into the same circuit, probably gonna pop the breaker) If you are going to add to this circuit, I would run 12 gauge. I would not change the breaker to 20 amp unless i was CERTAIN all the wiring on the circuit is 12 gauge.  

Thanks everyone for your comments.

My son moved from an apartment setting, so he has an electric patio grill which he wants to continue to use.  The grill is rated at 1750 watts.  Yesterday, using only what was available, I plugged in a 12 ga extension card to the garage door opener receptacle and to the grill.  I let the grill heat to 350-deg F.  The breaker did not pop.  I know this circuit also goes to the kitchen floor receptacles.  He has been using the extension cord plugged into the kitchen floor receptacles and the breaker has never popped.  Adding a new 20 amp circuit would be a real pain.   Danl 

1 hour ago, Danl said:

Thanks everyone for your comments.

My son moved from an apartment setting, so he has an electric patio grill which he wants to continue to use.  The grill is rated at 1750 watts.  Yesterday, using only what was available, I plugged in a 12 ga extension card to the garage door opener receptacle and to the grill.  I let the grill heat to 350-deg F.  The breaker did not pop.  I know this circuit also goes to the kitchen floor receptacles.  He has been using the extension cord plugged into the kitchen floor receptacles and the breaker has never popped.  Adding a new 20 amp circuit would be a real pain.   Danl 

How to put this so everyone knows what I’m saying without me stating it’s okay to perform work that doesn’t pass code....... From what you’re saying the circuit already has other loads on it, so it is no longer appliance specific. This still doesn’t allow you to add an outlet, code wise, but the violation is already present. If you can verify that all wiring on the circuit is 12 gauge, and you use 12 gauge, then the circuit can be placed on a 20 amp breaker, safely. The grill, at full load, draws 14.5 amps. This needs to be on a 20 amp circuit, by code. (You have to multiply full draw by 125% to determine minimum breaker size). I can’t advise you to do this, but I can state I don’t see a safety issue with putting a circuit wired with 12 gauge wiring on a 20 amp circuit. But if the grill is being used at near full load, and someone uses the garage door opener while the grill is in use, then the load is very likely going to be over 20 amps. Your son may experience a tripped breaker. Iff’n I was closer to Missouri, I would wander over there and take care of this for you. (Which of course would likely be illegal, since I hold no license in Missouri). I would make sure the receptacle is a GFCI outdoor rated one, and probably get one of the bubble covers if your son is going to leave the grill outside and plugged in.

15 hours ago, Artie said:

How to put this so everyone knows what I’m saying without me stating it’s okay to perform work that doesn’t pass code....... From what you’re saying the circuit already has other loads on it, so it is no longer appliance specific. This still doesn’t allow you to add an outlet, code wise, but the violation is already present. If you can verify that all wiring on the circuit is 12 gauge, and you use 12 gauge, then the circuit can be placed on a 20 amp breaker, safely. The grill, at full load, draws 14.5 amps. This needs to be on a 20 amp circuit, by code. (You have to multiply full draw by 125% to determine minimum breaker size). I can’t advise you to do this, but I can state I don’t see a safety issue with putting a circuit wired with 12 gauge wiring on a 20 amp circuit. But if the grill is being used at near full load, and someone uses the garage door opener while the grill is in use, then the load is very likely going to be over 20 amps. Your son may experience a tripped breaker. Iff’n I was closer to Missouri, I would wander over there and take care of this for you. (Which of course would likely be illegal, since I hold no license in Missouri). I would make sure the receptacle is a GFCI outdoor rated one, and probably get one of the bubble covers if your son is going to leave the grill outside and plugged in.

Thank you for your input.  I do appreciate it. 

Danl

9 minutes ago, Danl said:

Thank you for your input.  I do appreciate it. 

Danl

 

Definitely want bubble covers if you just bought place.  Insurance companies latest gig to charge you more is to do a inspection.  If they find stuff like that they give you 30 - 45 days to fix it or the rate goes up, or they refuse coverage.  

 

Something not related, lights in attic and an single outlet.  Why?  Convenience.  Really a PITA to go to attic to get something, or check on possible water leak, or a host of other issues and have to use a flashlight and walk around obstacles.  Boxes are cheap and the $1 single bulb fixtures are more than adequate for the job.  My house has been done for 20+ years, just upgraded to LED light bulbs as I got a package of 24 bulbs through local electric company.  Put mine every 4 feet apart at first then went back and just did every 2 ft, or every rafter all the way across.  Did my friends a few years ago and since then have done about 6-8 a year for his buddies.  $100-$200 project depending on if you have power already in attic.  And not something that requires much maintenance, occasional bulb goes bad. 

3 hours ago, Gunny said:

 

Definitely want bubble covers if you just bought place.  Insurance companies latest gig to charge you more is to do a inspection.  If they find stuff like that they give you 30 - 45 days to fix it or the rate goes up, or they refuse coverage.  

 

Something not related, lights in attic and an single outlet.  Why?  Convenience.  Really a PITA to go to attic to get something, or check on possible water leak, or a host of other issues and have to use a flashlight and walk around obstacles.  Boxes are cheap and the $1 single bulb fixtures are more than adequate for the job.  My house has been done for 20+ years, just upgraded to LED light bulbs as I got a package of 24 bulbs through local electric company.  Put mine every 4 feet apart at first then went back and just did every 2 ft, or every rafter all the way across.  Did my friends a few years ago and since then have done about 6-8 a year for his buddies.  $100-$200 project depending on if you have power already in attic.  And not something that requires much maintenance, occasional bulb goes bad. 

The external outlet will have a cover on it.  It is code in his county.  Definitely a good idea to have a light in the attic.  I have one in my house.  BUT, I'm not looking for a project house.  This is my son's home and I want to teach him how to fish.  Thank you all for your comments/input.  Danl

Just now, Danl said:

BUT, I'm not looking for a project house. 

 

 

Oh absolutely!!  My Dad suggested I get some right after I bought this place.  Don't recall him offering to come install them, or being here sweating 50 lbs in the summer heat up in the attic.  I do remember him telling me nice work, and by the way he needed a couple more lights put up drop by sometime.

 

Yeah, there aren’t too many people I go in attics for, during the summer.

 

12 hours ago, Artie said:

Yeah, there aren’t too many people I go in attics for, during the summer.

 

 

Especially if they have blown in insulation.