Harden made/makes some really nice furniture.   I had a customer that carried some of their stuff.   I went to a presentation and they said they had their own forest in upstate NY for their wood stock.

 

Sad.

 

https://www.woodworkingnetwork.com/furniture/174-year-old-harden-furniture-sells-all-its-assets?utm_source=Real_Magnet&utm_medium=Email&utm_term=byhammerandhand@yahoo.com&utm_content=DAILY BRIEF&utm_campaign=Oldest furniture maker sells in auction

Hopefully they will get the bidder they want.

small scale, large scale, no money in woodworking.  unless you press dust into sheets and sell flat packed stuff (Ikea).

4 minutes ago, DAB said:

small scale, large scale, no money in woodworking.  unless you press dust into sheets and sell flat packed stuff (Ikea).

Thomas Moser, been around for decades, hand made, high priced, they exist, way more than we think.

https://www.thosmoser.com/

16 minutes ago, John Morris said:

Thomas Moser, been around for decades, hand made, high priced, they exist, way more than we think.

https://www.thosmoser.com/

I visited Thos. Moser back in the '80s.   The seats were cut out by a room-sized CNC, dovetails cut on a giant dovetail template and router.   Hate to think what they have today.   Hand-made is a relative term.

21 minutes ago, kmealy said:

I visited Thos. Moser back in the '80s.   The seats were cut out by a room-sized CNC, dovetails cut on a giant dovetail template and router.   Hate to think what they have today.   Hand-made is a relative term.

It is relative, just like many of us woodworkers here on this forum do much of the work by power, even CNC, yet when we sell our goods, most of us will say hand made, I think. Because the human interaction is there in our work. Moser makes no secret they use CNC and DT machines, if you go through their videos on YouTube, they even even show those process's, but, much of it is by hand as well, they perform a combination of machine, hand, and power tool, just like we do in our own shops.

I think my point was to my friend DAB, to put out a blanket statement that there is no money in woodworking, is just not reality, we hear of the belly ups more than we do the start ups and success stories, but bad news tends to sell better than good news. I can put a looooong list with links of successful woodworking shops that have been around and I am sure will stay. Another one of my favorites is:

http://www.doucetteandwolfefurniture.com/Home_Page.html

They also have a wonderful YouTube channel.

https://www.youtube.com/user/doucetteandwolfe

Fine Hand Made Custom Furniture, yet they use a lathe.

 

I was just offering a more positive perspective on the craft and the future of the craft. But then I tend to surround myself with successful craft-persons, so I probably live in a bubble.

Great point though Keith, your comment could be a whole nother topic! When do we stop calling work hand made? Hmmm, could be a very interesting philosophical discussion.

 

It's a blurry line.

 

I visited a cabinet shop a couple years ago.   All the designs were on cabinetmaking software.  Pieces cut on CNC.  Moved to another area where edge banding applied by machine.   Another area drilled dowel holes, glued and inserted dowel on one side.  Moved over to another area where two guys put glue on other half of dowels, then into a big machine that hydraulically clamped them.    Off to the finish room where a guy sprayed on some lacquer, waited a few minutes and sprayed on a second coat.   Dried and packaged.

 

Other than the two guys with the glue bottle and one guy with a spray gun, about the only "hand made" part was moving material and parts from one machine to another.

 

On the other end, I visited Brian Boggs when he was making chairs out of the back end of his garage with hand tools.  He made it but I'm sure he's more mechanized now.

The hand made/hand crafted/whatever conversation can get really contentious. I read an article by Lonnie Bird on building a dresser. This one had the carcase joined by DT joints. He went on to show how he hogged most of the waste out freehand with a router...then chiseled the joints into a perfect fit...calling them hand cut dovetails. I mentioned in a post somewhere and man, did it start an argument.

hand tools and power tools still require skill to use.  but pushing a "go" button on a CNC is different.  someone, maybe you, maybe someone else not in the shop presently, had to program that CNC machine, to tell it what to do.  but now, an operator has to place the blank in the right place, clamp it securely, and hit "go".  whatever skill is being applied to that wood, is not being applied by the operator of the machine.  

 

but cutting a mortise and tenon joint, either by hand with chisels and planes and saws, or with a mortising attachment on a drill press and a tenoning jig on a table saw, requires the woodworker to know what he is doing at every step.  he has to lay the joint out, select where cuts are made and make them, and then fit it up properly.  not just stick a glued dowel in a hole made by a CNC machine.

 

my 2 cents.

Dowels are just round tenons, just saying,

Herb

2 hours ago, DAB said:

hand tools and power tools still require skill to use.  but pushing a "go" button on a CNC is different.  someone, maybe you, maybe someone else not in the shop presently, had to program that CNC machine, to tell it what to do.  but now, an operator has to place the blank in the right place, clamp it securely, and hit "go".  whatever skill is being applied to that wood, is not being applied by the operator of the machine.  

 

but cutting a mortise and tenon joint, either by hand with chisels and planes and saws, or with a mortising attachment on a drill press and a tenoning jig on a table saw, requires the woodworker to know what he is doing at every step.  he has to lay the joint out, select where cuts are made and make them, and then fit it up properly.  not just stick a glued dowel in a hole made by a CNC machine.

 

my 2 cents.

You hit the nail on the head, DAB! Don't mean to start a pi**ing match here, but CNC work is NOT woodworking, it's computer programming!

John

Gentlemen, respect please, we do have a CNC community here that my differ with that opinion.

Note taken, John. Much of that work is beautiful, and requires talent, and I certainly don't mean to belittle anyone's work. However, it's not handwork.

John

44 minutes ago, HARO50 said:

However, it's not handwork.

The CNC fabrication process is not, but having seen CNC plaques and other work up close lately, there is a lot of hand work that can go into the prep of the panels before they get inserted into the CNC process, the CNC woodworker still needs to cut, glue up, and after the CNC, many of their projects have to be meticulously sanded by hand, filed, and detailed and follow up carved with carving tools to clean up the lines, then finished, after the first coat of finish, sanded again meticulously as to not destroy the detail they worked so hard to get, then finish again. There really is much to it depending on the scope of the project.

1 hour ago, HARO50 said:

but CNC work is NOT woodworking

I think some CNC woodworkers would agree with you it's not hand work to a certain extent, but to say it's not woodworking! Well, those may be fighten words John.

 

It's all good John, I get it, completely.

I do love what CNC is doing for the industry these days, some really cool work is coming off those machines. And for the designers, it's an art in itself.

Thanks guys for your understanding, and thank you for respecting the pride of our fellow woodworking CNC artists.

 

I'm just razing ya John, and DAB. Just us guys standing over a table saw talking smack and debating the merits, shop talk!

In The Nature & Art of Workmanship, David Pye said

 

‘ … simply any kind of technique or apparatus, in which the quality of the result is not predetermined, but depends on judgment, dexterity and care which the maker exercises as he works. The essential idea is that the quality of the result is continually at risk during the process of making; and so I shall call this kind of workmanship “The workmanship of risk”: an uncouth phrase, but at least descriptive.’

 

He compares this with Workmanship of Certainty,  as a production process that, once started the outcome of the piece cannot be altered.

 

That opens up "hand made" to a wide berth, whether you use hand or power tools, or both.  I certainly have made a mis-cut on a table saw.  There is perhaps more risk in hand cutting dovetails than in using a dovetail jig, but you can screw both of them up.

2 minutes ago, kmealy said:

but you can screw both of them up.

amen to that!!!! and I do!

I'd own a CNC if...

#1. I could afford it and,

#2. I was smart enough to use it.

well, i made a bowl today.

 

from some scraps i had laying around.  cut the pieces to size on my table saw, glued up with clamps.  roughed out on my bandsaw, and turned on my lathe.  final bottom sanding with my random orbital sander.  finished with mineral oil/beeswax.

 

if you gave me a CNC, i'd just stare at it, and wonder how to make it do anything.  i'd do that for hours, not understanding what manner of magic it contains.  i still do drawings by hand with a pencil on my drafting table.  no CAD here.

 

bowl is oak, cherry, lacewood and walnut, cherry, and oak.

Nice bowl, Dab. Love the details...especially the lacewood bottom.

it'll be a gift for someone.

 

the point of this, aside from showing what i did, was to point out all the different, non-CNC tools used to make this.  not sure if you could even make this on a CNC, with all the compound curves and details.

 

they are good for certain tasks, like sign making or making complex cutouts over and over again.  but if you want to make a coffee table?  doubt they would be of much benefit.