1 hour ago, Fred W. Hargis Jr said:

I thought the reference was to the spay foam technique (icynene).

The Spray foam shrinks after a few years the folks at this old house no longer use it.

 

Foam might not be so great if it is not done exactly right.

 

Wow! That was an eye opener, Dan. My laudatory comments were a bit off the mark. As with any chemical application, one should exercise due diligence beforehand. The recommendations for explicit contractual terms are also a good thing, too.

Remember lead paint?  

At my last job they hired a reputable insulation contractor to come in and spray on some type of insulation mixed with a glue binder so as to stick to vertical  surfaces.  They sent a couple of guys in that must not have known what they were doing.  They had that stuff to dry and it floated down over everything.  What a mess.  More proof ones really needs to know what they are doing with the product they are installing.

First, let me premise my comments with this. I have almost 30 year of direct experience of dealing with Polyisosyanurate foam. This includes; design and development of delivery systems, personnel (manual) and remote (automatic) spray applications, as well as health monitoring.

 

Most of the video, in my opinion, is media sensationalism. However, here are some data points to consider so you can formulate an informed opinion.

 

There are many different type of "spray foam". Some common designations to differentiate density are made by # weight; 5#, 7#, etc. Others are different formulations containing different chemical compositions. However, all have one thing in common, they are two component mixtures. Think of epoxy as a comparable mixture as I go on. All foams are designated as an A and a B component.

 

There are several specific factors involved in the making (mixing of A and B component) foam. The A to B mixture ratios need to be precise. These are based upon ambient temperature and humidity of the spray environment. The A and B components are delivered through a formulator that performs the proper ratio mix and heats the component to a required temperature, as well as providing the proper spray pressures to the spray gun/nozzle.

 

If any of these parameters are off, then the foam will not cure out properly. Proper training, equipment and attention to the requirements are a must. All foams off-gas while curing. Let me state here, that, NO foam that I have ever been involved with EVER contained Formaldehyde. However, Formaldehyde is all around us as a normal chemical. That smell of freshly laid carpet or that new upholstered furniture is off-gassing Formaldehyde.

 

Without getting too technical, curing foam will give off some bad shite. The real hazard are MDI s (methylene diphenyl diisocyanate) off-gassed during the initial curing process. This is a very bad health hazard. For manual spray operations, personnel were required to use breathing air for applications. We would typically barricade off an exclusion area of 50' and enforce a 1/2 hour wait time to enter without breathing air respirators after spray completion. However, in reality, the MDI's health hazard area never exceeded 10' from point of operation and dissipated almost immediately. That doesn't mean that odor(s) from the foam were still not present, however, they were typically nuisance odors and were not a health hazard. UNCURED foam component has a distinct odor and it can be unpleasant to some people.

 

With all of this said, here is what I gathered from the video. The contractor's application personnel either didn't know what they were doing, their formulator "F-ed up", and/or the component was degraded (it has an expiration). Either way the contractor was responsible. As for the family, what a bunch of martyrs! Don't get me wrong there WAS a problem initially, however, the only remaining issue was the uncured component odor (refer to nuisance odor above) The wife reminds me of an employee who once complained about an asbestos problem in his work are. He was adamant that there was asbestos in his work area because, "...he could small and taste it..." Think about that statement!

 

As for the "foam expert", give me a break! He was an engineer that designed "VENTILATION SYSTEMS"! I would place any of my TPS (Thermal Protection System) Mechanics up against him any day of the week. They would run circles around him. The video was a perfect vehicle to hawk his "expertise".

 

Bottom line, I would not hesitate to ever use spayed in foam if I ever need to insulate a new structure or additions. However, I would do my homework on the contractor, demand the training documents for the applicators, and I would sure as heck verify the components. My advantage is experience that the average person doesn't possess. That's why the reputation and WRITTEN guarantee by the contractor is important. Due diligence is the name of the game here.

8 hours ago, Gene Howe said:

We used to live in a part of AZ where flat roofs were prevalent. In the old days, rolled roofing or just layers of tar paper was the covering. You can imagine what a mess that became. Then, spray foam insulation became the go to covering. That was good for a while, until UV and pigeons began to degrade it. Eventually a white polymer coating over the foam became the usual. That protected the foam and reflected the sun's rays. Leaky roofs were rare and the homes were much cooler in the summer and, easier to heat in the winter.

If I were building a new home today, I'd use the foam in every instance where insulation was required. It's great stuff. 

You hit the nail on the head, Gene. Spray foam doesn't like UV. However, It is pretty resilient, but it will turn powdery and crumble eventually. It will, also, absorb water eventually.

 

My experiences with foam had to do with the External Tank for the Space Shuttle. We had several tanks that sat around for years with no degradation to the foam. Placed outside and the UV would eventually start to work on it. The Cape had a problem with woodpeckers pecking at the foam while the Space Shuttle was sitting on the pad. I believe they mitigated that with noise cannons and nets.

9 hours ago, Michael Thuman said:

The Spray foam shrinks after a few years the folks at this old house no longer use it.

 

Sorry, but I don't have any knowledge of properly applied foam "shrinking". It may have to do with the type of foam being applied or the age of the A/B components.

 

Generally, the foam expands anywhere from 4-16:1. It is important that it be applied properly. Over-expansion can cause some real issues. If it is allowed to build-up the exothermic reaction, and the resulting heat generation, can cause it to combust. We had several minor fires over the years, caused from inexperienced applicators. Most were from test sprays to test the set-up before application to the actual components. Too much material would get applied and a exothermic reaction would happen.

 

I don't ever recall any issues with shrinkage, however. If you have any specifics I would be interested to know the source to see what the circumstances were.

 

Added:

 

With a little further research I came across this abstract:

 

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1106/DWGD-PX79-WR0G-9GBW

 

Apparently, it is not an uncommon occurrence, with the newer blowing agents, if the correct application procedures are not followed. Again, it is dependent on the correct parameters being applied; ratio, temperature, humidity, and tip pressures.  If any of them are out of spec, then shrinkage might occur. So, were right back to the knowledge, experience and training of the people doing the application instead of the material being the problem.

Edited October 25, 20178 yr by schnewj

I had a house with blown in cellulose..   IT retains moisture it settles and compacts.  it won't give you fibrosis if you breathe the dust

Yes in some of the places the foam shrinks I have heard of it. My brother had insulated the roof with foam spray and it absorbs moisture and eventually it shrinks with time.

10 hours ago, Josie said:

Yes in some of the places the foam shrinks I have heard of it. My brother had insulated the roof with foam spray and it absorbs moisture and eventually it shrinks with time.

I'm confused, does your brother live in a high humidity area? Unless the roof is leaking and the foam is in direct contact with the moisture, or he doesn't have proper ventilation in the attic, it shouldn't absorb ANY moisture. When foam is properly applied it forms a skin (we referred to is as a rind) on the surface. The rind forms a pretty good moisture barrier that prevents moisture infiltration.

 

I have experience with applications that were 30 years old that had no indications of shrinkage or degradation. They were exposed to a very high humidity and high heat environment (Southern Louisiana) without ANY problems. However, this foam was applied with Freon as a component in the blowing agent, when the EPA requirements tightened up back in the 90's we had to utilize a different blowing agent in the component . There were some initial challenges but they were quickly worked out and we obtained the same initial qualities as the Freon containing components kits.

 

Again, it sounds to me like an improper application of the product more than a problem with the foam itself.