Noticed that HF has two new tool lines - Bauer and Hercules.

 

I never did understand where all their other house brands fit in the hierarchy -- Chicago Pneumatic, Pittsburgh Forge, Pittsburgh Professional, Chicago Electric, Daytona, Portland, Bunker Hill, (am I seeing a pattern here?) Central Machinery,  US General, Earthquake XT,  Storehouse, Warrior, Hardy, Predator, Drill Master, etc. etc. etc.

 

Why don't they just have a good, better and best, or in their case, crap, crapper, and crappiest?

 

And why do they sometimes have two SKUs for the same tool - different vendors?

Edited November 22, 20178 yr by Ron Dudelston
tags added

same trash...

new ribbon...

It's all dog food.  Remember when there was a spate of pets being killed by bad food?  It was traced to illegal ingredients, but the interesting thing was that dozens of food brands were involved, but relatively few factories.  The brands all came from the same factories, and the brands had allowed the factory to use certain common ingredients (often filler material), which turned out to be defective.  The Big Names in food didn't suffer the problem because they insist on specific ingredients; often Big Names have their own factories.

 

Similar structure in tool manufacture, and especially in the component parts.  Designers often try to use common, existing parts, rather than special design.  One of the problems they found with changing NAFTA is that products cross the border many times as sub-assemblies are made.  "Made in XXX" turns out to be a complex calculation by percentage.  And add to that major stores (the Alphabet People) want unique products at reduced "special" pricing (e.g., the Ryobi drill I buy at HD doesn't have a light).  My Sears/Craftsman band saw is actually a Rikon (the op manuals are 99% identical). 

 

So when I see a comment about a brand name, I take it with a bag of salt.  When I look at Amazon reviews (my #1 reference source), I rank the reviews by date to see what the item has been doing LATELY.  Makes a big difference.  Life on the avalanche:  gotta move your feet fast. 

It's even hard to find a Bosch not made in Asia anymore, most are made in Malaysia according to Bosch's own Forum Community.

I think the bottom line is, as much as we would all love to support our American labor, it's just getting harder and harder to be a purist, and not walk the hypocritical line.

That being said, I stated awhile back we will get a resource page up for American factories, we will.

 

But I digress, I will purchase what is good for me, and my needs, if the American market want's to compete, then they better figure it all out, it's not my yob to figure how they can compete with Asia, they got CEO's for that, and if their own CEO's can't figure it out, then I aint gonna sweat walking in to HD and walking out with a beautiful Makita portable drill that works awesomely smooth, and at a very reasonable cost.

The reality is, the CEO's have no desire to figure out how to bring Porter Cable back to North America, they are making too much money where they are at. Glad I purchased my Porters 15 years ago with the Made in the USA sticker.

John, my new Bosch SCMS came from China. Bosch, unlike some others, seems to enforce their quality standards. 

14 minutes ago, Gene Howe said:

John, my new Bosch SCMS came from China. Bosch, unlike some others, seems to enforce their quality standards. 

They do Gene, they do have ISO factories that enforce their standards, overseen by quality control techs placed by the Bosch company, the quality is fine obviously. Just because Bosch is made in Malaysia, does not mean they are crap, quite the opposite. I love my Bosch jig saw.

Harbor Freight, love em or hate em, they are doing something right, they have been in business how long? They are answering a niche call, and they are highly successful.

On ‎7‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 4:02 PM, kmealy said:

I never did understand where all their other house brands fit in the hierarchy -- Chicago Pneumatic, Pittsburgh Forge, Pittsburgh Professional, Chicago Electric, Daytona, Portland, Bunker Hill, (am I seeing a pattern here?) Central Machinery,  US General, Earthquake XT,  Storehouse, Warrior, Hardy, Predator, Drill Master, etc. etc. etc

 

They are all familiar names in the United States.  Familiar tool brands? No but familiar names just the same.  Goes a long way in advertising.

1 hour ago, John Morris said:

they do have ISO factories that enforce their standards,

I've tried to stay out of this topic, but finally decided to toss my 2 cents in since I already had my coffee...John not picking on you at all, but using your ISO statement to further clarify what that actually means. I speak with some knowledge having met the requirements of obtaining an ISO Lead Auditor Certification via a Certified Registrar and leading and conducting a variety of formal internal audits for a Fortune 50 Company.

 

Because a manufacturing facility is ISO 9001 Certified (compliant) does not necessarily mean they turn out high quality products. ISO certification essentially means, as a manufacturing facility, you operate under a defined and documented quality plan written internally which includes a specific process to mitigate quality errors If (when) they occur and you execute to your plan.

 

The quality level of any product is ultimately defined by the end customer (consumer) proportional to the price paid for the product, the durability and reliability of the product as well as parts and service beyond the sale (aka dealer organization).

 

As John noted, I believe we all try to by American made products when/where possible, but it is up to those companies to justify their value. I'm in business too...the business of doing what I need to get done efficiently and as effectively as possible while maintaining my own personal cash flow. I could rant here for hours about the obscene level of compensation CEO's and other top executives earn while resourcing the work to undeveloped parts of the world, but it's your lucky day...I won't do that

 

However, while Bosch (and some others) makes a quality tool and may in fact assemble some of those tools right here in the good 'ole USA, Bosch Co. IS NOT an American company; therefore the overall profits earned ultimately do not stay in this country but return to the "mother-land."  Note in the first paragraph below, the gross sales last year is specified in Euros, NOT American dollars...just sayin'

 

From Bosch Co Home Page...Bosch in the U.S.A.

The Bosch Group is a leading global supplier of technology and services. It employs roughly 390,000 associates worldwide (as of December 31, 2016). The company generated sales of 73.1 billion euros in 2016. Its operations are divided into four business sectors: Mobility Solutions, Industrial Technology, Consumer Goods, and Energy and Building Technology....

 

...The Bosch Group comprises Robert Bosch GmbH and its roughly 440 subsidiaries and regional companies in some 60 countries. Including sales and service partners, Bosch’s global manufacturing and sales network covers nearly every country in the world. The basis for the company’s future growth is its innovative strength. At 120 locations across the globe, Bosch employs some 59,000 associates in research and development.

 

The company was set up in Stuttgart in 1886 by Robert Bosch (1861-1942) as “Workshop for Precision Mechanics and Electrical Engineering.” The special ownership structure of Robert Bosch GmbH guarantees the entrepreneurial freedom of the Bosch Group, making it possible for the company to plan over the long term and to undertake significant upfront investments in the safeguarding of its future. Ninety-two percent of the share capital of Robert Bosch GmbH is held by Robert Bosch Stiftung GmbH, a charitable foundation. The majority of voting rights are held by Robert Bosch Industrietreuhand KG, an industrial trust. The entrepreneurial ownership functions are carried out by the trust. The remaining shares are held by the Bosch family and by Robert Bosch GmbH.

Edited July 26, 20178 yr by Grandpadave52

Good post Dave!

Regardless, Dave, don't most people buy Bosch because they like his weird art and his detective work?

ISO is nothing more than a paper trail, and an added expense to the manufacturers. I worked for a company that was certified as an ISO 9001 manufacturer. Whenever the ISO inspectors came to the company, "the company is always notified when they are coming", management would make exhaustive efforts to make sure all of the paperwork was up to date and accurate. Employees were told how to answer questions if asked, and told not to offer any information other than the questions asked. After the company was certified, they discontinued the quality control department,and told employees that each employee was responsible for  quality control. This is a world wide company, specializing in the manufacture of Air Handlers,controlling cleanliness, temperatures, moisture control etc. in factories, hospitals, and large department stores .

The problem is,, if you're not ISO 9001 certified, you can't ship out of the country. ISO produces nothing, manufactures nothing, but their salaries are paid by the manufacturers. There are lower levels of certification for shipping within the USA

1 minute ago, It Was Al B said:

ISO is nothing more than a paper trail, and an added expense to the manufacturers. I worked for a company that was certified as an ISO 9001 manufacturer. Whenever the ISO inspectors came to the company, "the company is always notified when they are coming", management would make exhaustive efforts to make sure all of the paperwork was up to date and accurate. Employees were told how to answer questions if asked, and told not to offer any information other than the questions asked. After the company was certified, they discontinued the quality control department,and told employees that each employee was responsible for  quality control. This is a world wide company, specializing in the manufacture of Air Handlers,controlling cleanliness, temperatures, moisture control etc. in factories, hospitals, and large department stores .

The problem is,, if you're not ISO 9001 certified, you can't ship out of the country. ISO produces nothing, manufactures nothing, but their salaries are paid by the manufacturers. There are lower levels of certification for shipping within the USA

Yep, you nailed it dead-center on the head Al!

Alright alright, forget I said ISO, lets just go with, Bosch has their own quality control people in the factory, ensuring their tools are made to their highest specifications, there, how's that! The heck with ISO, I'll never say it again. ISO has nothing to do with quality, fine, great, but Bosch does!

Not to stir the pot at all, but I am learning some stuff here.

Who's brainchild was the beginning of ISO certification?  Is this some type of government program/mandate?  Where did it all start?

Cal

9 minutes ago, clhyer said:

Not to stir the pot at all, but I am learning some stuff here.

Who's brainchild was the beginning of ISO certification?  Is this some type of government program/mandate?  Where did it all start?

Cal

Here is the ISO website Cal, tells the story of how and why it was created https://www.iso.org/the-iso-story.html

Since I don't have much knowledge myself, other than it sounds good and it's trumpeted by manufactures and retailers in our industry such as Grizzly. I found out about ISO about 15 years ago when I got my first Grizzly catalog and they push the ISO 9001 big in their catalog, I guess it's meant to put us at ease for purchasing their machinery made in Taiwan?

Honestly, I am at the point, and have been for a long time, I don't care where anyone buys tools and machinery from, as long as in doing so they are able to woodwork, stay busy, be creative, and enjoy themselves, who the heck are we to bash that?

 

I think sometimes we get a little snooty about this subject. I say get what you can afford, whatever it takes to keep working the wood!

10 hours ago, It Was Al B said:

ISO is nothing more than a paper trail, and an added expense to the manufacturers.

 

Years ago, OSHA came out with, what they referred to as, the OSHA STAR program. Basically, the same general premise as the ISO 9001 programs. The whole premise was to "earn" the STAR rating to minimize, or avoid OSHA inspections of the facility. In order to obtain the rating, you had to expend vastly more resources and paperwork then you would normally, to "earn" and maintain the rating.

 

We determined that the time and money and effort was just not worth the rating. Essentially, since it was all smoke and mirrors designed to ease the workload of the OSHA inspectors.

 

In spite of this we rarely were bothered by OSHA. In the thirty years I was there, we had only three visits from OSHA inspectors for on-site fatalities (mandated by law). Two of which did not involve my company. One was a confined space death, of one of our employees,  that actually had nothing to do with the area being a SIGNED Confined Space. In addition, we had, to the best of my recollection, around five visits due to employee complaints ( which were determined to be bogus),and during post-Katrina I ran off two OSHA inspectors who saw us making temporary roof repairs. I wouldn't let them onto the facility. However, I assured them that all of the proper precautions were in place for the operations.

 

They were doing roving inspections (unannounced) and seemed to be satisfied with my information.

 

We empowered are employees to be responsible. Creating a work environment that provided one of the best safety records in the country. We went, literally, millions of man-hours without lost time accidents. One stretch exceeded 13M (yes, million) man-hours without a lost time accident.

 

We were second only to DuPont with our record...then DuPont was busted for "cooking the books". Unlike most employers we investigated and corrected everything; from paper cuts in the office, to the above referenced fatalities.

 

Bottom line...only the employees can ensure the environment and the quality of the products. No amount of "smoke and mirrors" programs will change that mindset.

I've always found it amusing the acronym for this body is ISO, however their actual name is International Organization for Standardization. Shouldn't it be IOS?

 

@clhyer...as Al noted, attaining certification pretty much became a mandate especially for U.S. based companies if they wanted to sell in European markets. Some markets  restricted you from bidding a project without being ISO-9000 certified. There used to be 3 tiers of 9000...1, 2, 3,; depending on the size of an organization, their manufacturing strategy, if they were a first, second or third tier supplier, etc. allowed some "wiggle" room to attain certification. Small companies could neither afford or justify becoming ISO-9001 certified but could benefit from attaining 9000-2 or 9000-3 levels.

 

I've been out of that loop for about 10 years, but when our facility first pursued, the process went something like this....

(-) A team was formed to evaluate any existing Quality Plan (QP) to each component of the ISO Standard; Team members were assigned sections of the standard as it might relate to their area of expertise to either document or revise any current plan. We were fortunate to already have attained an internal certification as well as numerous Marine Society certifications. The Marine Societies had meat and teeth in their standards and were far more stringent IMO. Their requirements address actual product quality & health where-as ISO focused more on quality of processes.

 

(-) Once your QP was documented, training was provided for the facility Ee's. The degree and level of training was proportional to an Ee's impact and responsibility on overall product quality.The Master Copy of the QP resided with the facility, Operations Quality Manager. Any subsequent copies had to be documented, numbered and specifically identified to process owner as well as specific location.

 

(-) An internal pre-audit meeting the ISO Standard first had to be conducted before an actual external audit could be scheduled with an independent registrar. Internal audit results were compiled, lots of meetings held with the Plant Manager and down to address any non-conformance's, observations and areas of concern. Amendments were made if/where required, additional training provided as/where needed, spot audits conducted, then finally an external audit was scheduled.

 

(-) Our Independent, External Registrar was Det Norske Veritas ( DNV ). Initial certification audits usually bring in 2 or 3 assessors and can last 5-10 working days. Initial cost back then was ~$75k. Very grueling process...I served as an "escort" more than once...I'd prefer to appear at a Congressional hearing versus this role. Daily debrief meetings occur to review any findings, challenge findings and bring in subject matter process owners where needed.

 

(-) Finally, once initial certification is attained, 2x/yr "surveillance audits" are mandated. These audits typically last 3-5 business days and also must be conducted by an external registrar. Of course you pay for these too. Additionally, a facility must perform their own internal audits on at least on a monthly basis and must be performed by ISO registered and certified internal auditors. This is not a "full blown" audit, but in the course of a year should cover every aspect of the quality plan. "Random" spot audits are also conducted throughout the year. Re-certification is mandated every 3 years, but a facility could lose their certification for non-compliance during the surveillance audits. If that occurs, you are required to start the process over from square one.

 

As Al noted and you can see it does drive cost, but the inability to sell in markets without certification is far greater. Being ISO certified has it's merits as long as a company adheres to what they say they do. It doesn't assure a better or higher quality product...only each individual employee can do that..PERIOD! ISO merely establishes a level playing field for manufacturers around the globe. The biggest problem I still see, after certification, companies often revert back to what they've always done or try to find work arounds to their own plan. Kinda' defeats the purpose.

 

Hope this helps a little...thanks to everyone/anyone that followed this boring post...if you think this is bad, you aught to actually do it for about 10 years...now you see why I'm "out there" and glazed over most of the time...Speaking of glazed, one of the few good things about all them, there meetins' was the donuts. I miss the donuts

 

Once last thing...as an internal quality auditor (and auditor lead trainer), one of my mentors gave me a plaque after I became a full-fledged auditor...the plaque said...

"An auditor is someone who goes out to the battlefield after the battle has been lost and bayonets the wounded!" I quickly learned that meaning...when I had on my "auditor hat" close work allies, managers, and peers turned on you like a rabid dog....a few wouldn't speak to me for weeks after an audit...and here I thought I was trying to help.

59 minutes ago, John Morris said:

I say get what you can afford, whatever it takes to keep working the wood!

The tool philosophy I have worked out for my budget...it's the wood that breaks the bank

It takes a lot of lumber to make a floor full of saw dust and shavings just to get a single box of toothpicks...