I got the nordfab stuff.  I really expected a cad drawing of the lay out since I didn't do it but let their expert do it  from my shop drawings.  I didn't get that though.  So I've been putting this wild  jigsaw puzzle together. LEMETELLYA it was daunting at first.  Put together take apart put together take apart. ANd if ya don't wear leather gloves you will lose your hands maybe up to the elbows. They don't deburr. 

 

 And it's tough going. That woodwhisperer guy has a video where he claims that it goes together like a snap.   That's not my experience. I  really have to struggle to get two heavy pieces lined up just right while working over my head to get the snap collar to get 'em just right.  When it goes together it goes together great but getting it  there is the thing. It helps if ya can assemble as much as you can on the floor but with a lot of busyness over head like my shop has, the pre-assembly trick is limited. I've also learned that the stuff Grizzly sells is nordfab, just rebranded. So if you get it from them it'll hook up just fine to nordfab banded stuff.   No pics yet. Failure remains an option.

3 minutes ago, Cliff said:

Failure remains an option.

NEVER!!

Cliff, you should raise havoc for that cad dgn. You need that. Can you call the duct guy and get it emailed to you?

Oh I was going to mention the reason the one single reason I didn't go plastic sewer pipe is insurance. 

 

Insurance companies are convinced that wood sawdust is a spark / fire risk. So if there is a fire and their inspector can claim it was caused by the DC they won't pay.

 

I went with AC ducting Cliff, metal all the way. The plastic ducting builds up static like crazy. 

I have heard of dust fires, it does happen, but I am not sure what the conditions would have to be like for a static build up off the plastic pipe to ignite the wood dust. 

We did an experiment with my daughter years ago for her 6th grade science fair, and low and behold, we were able to ignite flower to simulate a grain explosion in a silo, silo fires are no joke.

John said it, they should have given you something to help get the parts in the right place...I can only imagine the headaches involved not having that.

Remember, if you fail 10 times, but got it right on the 11th try - all you have done is learn 10 ways NOT to do it, no failure at all

The static build-up is an old argument. As a 40 year safety professional I can say, that, they have never proved a static discharge fire in a hobby type operations. In an industrial setting, yes. However, the conditions are much different between a hobby shop operation and a commercial one.

I defy an insurance agent to prove that static build-up discharge in plastic piping caused a fire. Every argument he can come up with, I could counter with documented studies and testing.

The real argument with plastic is, grounding or no grounding on the pipe. Since plastic does build a static charge rapidly it should be grounded. However, not for fear of fire, but for the fear of the actual discharge. People don't stop to think what can happen here. A strong enough discharge can raise serious issues with such things as; pacemakers, hearing aids and other medical devices. Get surprised by a zap and you don't know what your going to hit or fall into when you jump.

I  should modify my grounding thoughts above...to be totally clear, ALL piping should be grounded, not just the plastic. Again, the fear here is not flash fire but discharge itself.

remember when Ray (Rabie's) hearing aide went nuts and the shrill it produced had him flopping around like a fish out of water and al the screaming he was doing scared the snot out of us...

Edited August 21, 20169 yr by Stick486

I have two inch PVC pipe through the shop ceiling for my shop vac.  No fire but it has given me the biggest static shock I have ever gotten from anything else on a couple occasions. 

Dan

14 hours ago, schnewj said:

, they have never proved a static discharge fire in a hobby type operations. [...]

I defy an insurance agent to prove that static build-up discharge in plastic piping caused a fire. Every argument he can come up with, I could counter with documented studies and testing.

 

 

 

Wouldn't disagree,  but from  my perspective  the thing is money.   Say for example a homeowner gets a fire and the insurance people  insist that it was a non metallic DC that caused it.   The home owner cries foul and sets about to do as you describe. But the Insurance company  has their own data and experts and they  don't care about yours. So they dig in and from there it's only going to be resolved in the courts.  From there  it's hiring lawyers  and paying boatloads for technical expert testimony and going through what may take a year or more in the courts and an awful lot of money  and all for an uncertain outcome.   One can be right all day long, and still lose in the end.

 

Edited August 21, 20169 yr by Cliff
because it is just so much fun

25 minutes ago, Cliff said:

 

 

Wouldn't disagree,  but from  my perspective  the thing is money.   Say for example a homeowner gets a fire and the insurance people  insist that it was a non metallic DC that caused it.   The home owner cries foul and sets about to do as you describe. But the Insurance company  has their own data and experts and they  don't care about yours. So they dig in and from there it's only going to be resolved in the courts.  From there  it's hiring lawyers  and paying boatloads for technical expert testimony and going through what may take a year or more in the courts and an awful lot of money  and all for an uncertain outcome.   One can be right all day long, and still lose in the end.

 

I totally understand your thought process. In the end it's a personal decision, that, you have to make.

I have never had a static discharge in my PVC pipes.

The example John gave of the flour explosion is a classic science "experiment" and nothing more. All it proves is that if conditions are right (air saturated with dust) you could have ignition. The problem here is you are dealing with a theoretical set of conditions which is almost impossible to create in a home shop. You would have to be working on several machines at once to create enough dust to saturate the air.

15 minutes ago, Gerald said:

The example John gave of the flour explosion is a classic science "experiment" and nothing more

Agreed, if it looked like I was trying to raise a concern that was not the case, it was just an interesting side quip. And a fun experiment! Unrelated to woodworking, the science experiment was supposed to simulate a silo explosion which is a very real reality. Although the conditions need to be just right as well.

Just make sure your not grinding metals into a DC intake area, the sparks could get sucked into the unit, and smolder, and burn. And danged near start a fire, please, please do not ask me how I know this!

screw the fire/explosion...

if Ray had had a pacemaker instead of a hearing aid that went ape... what then...

sorry...

plastic is out and that is all there is to it...

I refuse to gamble when there may be a life at stake...

25 minutes ago, John Morris said:

 

Just make sure your not grinding metals into a DC intake area, the sparks could get sucked into the unit, and smolder, and burn. And danged near start a fire, please, please do not ask me how I know this!

Ahhhhh... VOE...

putting out a sawdust fire can be one seriously difficult task...

11 hours ago, Stick486 said:

Ahhhhh... VOE

One of the definitions of experience is that it is what you get just after you really needed it.

...or as my father used to say, "poor decisions come from a lack of experience, and experience come from a bunch of poor decisions". Some folks just never learn, other don't want to...

 

Bill

I'm not an expert in explosions (did a few in the Army, but...), but I've done lots of exhaust control systems (lead, AIDS, radiological, acids, wood, oh and toilets!!).  In a commercial wood shop, you have a much higher population of tools vs duct, and thus you expect a lot more dust.  It's just a statistical thing:  commercial and industrial systems have dust/oxygen ratios near explosive conditions (which have to be Just Right) more often.  Not often, just MORE often.  Also, they make bigger bangs, so Code requires a lot more grounding.  What I'd fear in a small shop or hobby app is simple inconvenience of getting zapped when you touch the stuff, AND the fact that you collect dust on the outside of the static-charged ducts.  I use wire-wound flex duct, and don't get much static.  Previously, I'd wrapped copper wire around the exhaust ducts and grounded it at the DC.  This would work fine with pvc:  just spiral wrap the copper wire (the fine braided stuff, not solid) on the pvc, and use a simple tape (duct tape!) wrap about every 12".  No need for paranoia.  Also, if you have an insurance company that would argue as advocated here, you got the wrong insurance company, and have already been cheated.  I got USAA.  They're MY kind of people.