Hello all

I have tried to start a small project with my bowl turning tools. it's a small item similar to i believe it was Adam's Toothpick holder http://www.thepatriotwoodworker.com/forum/topics/new-turning-i-call-it-a-toothpick-holder

Nice holder by the way

But in my case not all is going well, I don't know if the grind on the tool is wrong, it's a 3/8" gouge (it doesn't seem to be since it does cut nice long strings of waste off the wood), but sadly that seems to be all it will do without catching to the point of slinging the piece across the room, or kicking the tool back into my hands at the very least. The black on the outer wall is from it flying off the lathe on the last catch into the tool rest.

The image below shows results after 5 minutes of trying everything i know to get the tool to actually start cutting.

I'm not sure that you can see the grind on this tool properly but maybe you can. if it helps any, this is the grind the tool came with from PSI I also have a 1/2" and a 5/8" that are ground the same way

Any ideas?

Thanks!

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Charles
nicholls61@att.net
http://www.nichollswoodworks.com
This website is new so it doesn't have much to it yet but you are welcome to take a look

Hey Charles, you sure got allot of advice on FB!!!!! Tell me this, what are the specs of the chisel you are using? Thanks!

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John Morris
The Patriot Woodworker
Proud Supporter of Wounded Warrior Project and Homes For Our Troops

I could be all wet here but that looks suspiciously like a roughing or spindle gouge. If it is, that could be your problem. For this type of turning you will need either a bowl gouge or a round nose scraper.

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Lew-
Time traveler. Purveyor of the world's finest custom rolling pins!

Just another thought..

With something this small, you could probably use a "regular" narrow round nose scraper. No need to buy a bowl scraper. You probably won't be extending the tip too far beyond the tool rest therefore the thinner scraper should work OK.

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Lew-
Time traveler. Purveyor of the world's finest custom rolling pins!

Let me take a couple of pix of mine and lets compare. A finger nail grind is usually not used on a bowl gouge.

Charles Nicholls said:

Actually these are bowl gouges or at least that is what PSI is calling them since they have the deeper flute on them, but the sides are too high and seem to catch on EVERYTHING, so I cant use but very light pressure or it hangs every time. Until I can find a way to put a fingernail grind on them I just wont use them at all, its causing way too much frustration for something that is supposed to be fun.

I only have a 1" scraper that is a round nose and that doesn't even begin to cut the wood it just drags across it

Lewis Kauffman said:

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Charles
nicholls61@att.net
http://www.nichollswoodworks.com
This website is new so it doesn't have much to it yet but you are welcome to take a look

OK, looks like the gouge you have is similar to what I have. Here are some pix comparing my 2 types and a poorly made drawing of something I picked up out of a book.

Roughing gouge top

Roughing gouge end

Spindle gouge top

Spindle gouge end

Bowl gouge top

Bowl gouge end

Bowl profile

Please don't look at the poorly sharpened ends. Notice the flute on the bowl gouge is very narrow- compared to the other gouges and somewhat deeper. Also the end grind is rather steep, not like a fingernail grind.

Something I was doing incorrectly when I started trying to turn bowls (all end grain turnings) was that I thought you presented the bowl gouge to the work piece in the same manner as the roughing or spindle gouge. I was getting a lot of catches. This poorly drawn picture illustrates, from what I have read, is the correct method of using the bowl gouge. 

Please remember, I am a self taught turner. I am sure the more experienced members will have even better ideas from their experiences.

Charles Nicholls said:

Here's a better look at what i have.

Lewis Kauffman said:

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Lew-
Time traveler. Purveyor of the world's finest custom rolling pins!

I have a smaller bowl gouge (3/8") like yours- just photoed the larger one for clarity. here are some scans from a book I have. I hope we don't get into trouble for posting them. Maybe they might help.

Although the pix show wet wood being turned, the process is the same for what you wanted to do. However, you won't see those nice long curls with dry wood. My biggest challenge was to learn how to hold the gouge, where to start the cut and which direction to move the gouge. This type of turning is not as forgiving as spindle turning. I still do a LOT of turning with a scraper. Don't know if you have a grinder, yet, but if you do, you could make a scraper out of an old file. People tell you not to because the file is so hard and brittle but if you take it easy, they seem to work OK. I have made several scrapers/cutting tools from old, thick files and they have performed well- so far.

 

Charles Nicholls said:

I really don't see a difference between the 2 other than your gouge is larger than my 3/8. Maybe my eye's just don't notice a difference if there is one. All I really want to do is turn bowls and "boxes" of no more than 10" without having to fight to do it.

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Charles
nicholls61@att.net
http://www.nichollswoodworks.com
This website is new so it doesn't have much to it yet but you are welcome to take a look

Charles, here is a link to a video I posted here on our site. Last year I was able to sit in a demonstration with Stuart Batty, His technique is one of the best I have seen for turning a bowl. I have worked on this method and it is pretty easy to pick up. Using his method and a properly sharpened bowl gouge you can present the nose of the gouge to the wood and when it catches you can almost do it completely one handed.

Give this a look and notice the when he is rounding off the bottom of the piece of wood, his bowl gouge has the flute turned to the right 90 degrees. The flute is not on the top like it would be on a spindle gouge.

That a look at this and I will see if I can also find another one that will show you how to make that cut.

http://www.thepatriotwoodworker.com/video/stuart-batty-lathe-techinque

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John Moody
John Moody Woodworks
http://www.johnmoodywoodworks.com

There is practically no bevel on a scraper. I have a small bench grinder. I set the tool rest perpendicular to the wheel face at to center line of the wheel. Turn the scraper "up side down" and grind the end of the scraper. This makes the top edge of the scraper end slightly longer than the bottom edge- by an amount equal to the arc of the grinding wheel. It also tends to out a wire edge on the top which helps improve the cutting action.

Charles Nicholls said:

From these photo's I can't tell which way it's being held or even which way he is moving it other than the very last in which I assume by the position of the chisel, it is traveling from an inner to an out position as the cut is being made.

I think that is what I am having the most troule with is how and where to hold the tool. Everything I have tried so far has resulted in a catch.

I do have a scraper, i just need to figure out the bevel that works best to sharpen it so that it will actually cut something.

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Charles
nicholls61@att.net
http://www.nichollswoodworks.com
This website is new so it doesn't have much to it yet but you are welcome to take a look

When he introduces the tool into the wood to hollow the bottom out, he does the exact same move. You introduce the nose of the tool in starting on the side and swing toward the middle. As the tool goes in you then rotate the tool so the wings on the side take the cut as you approach the middle.

So you would have the took across the lathe, right hand furthest away and then as you start the cut in, you swing the tool back toward you and rotate it.

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John Moody
John Moody Woodworks
http://www.johnmoodywoodworks.com

See if this helps

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John Moody
John Moody Woodworks
http://www.johnmoodywoodworks.com

That's a good video Lew. I was looking for that one to show him.

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John Moody
John Moody Woodworks
http://www.johnmoodywoodworks.com

Charles, it looks like you're cutting end grain on that piece.  You may want to use a piece that you can cut the edge grain while you hone your skills.

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Ron Dudelston
Above and Beyond WoodWorks

Charles,

In the first video, the presenter was using the gouge to just flatten the entire surface of the piece PRIOR to digging out the bowl. That can be done with the flute pointed away from the center. You noticed the second video presenter had the flute pointed towards the bowl center.  He started near and to the left of center and pushed the tip/open flute towards the center. You also saw that he made the point that the tool rest was below the centerline of the work piece. This is done so that the lower cutting edge of the flute/tip contacts the work piece as it is sweeping down and slightly away from the tool. What is not really apparent is the gouge is held at an angle both horizontally and vertically as the tool touches the work piece. The angle, horizontally, is such that the bevel on the tip rubs on the work piece more so than just the tip. The angle vertically, is such that the lower cutting edge of the flute/tip is all that contacts the work piece. As far as I can tell, you always work a bowl gouge - when digging out the center, from the outside edge towards the center. Somewhere I read a "rule" to always move a gouge from "High to Low". It is really difficult to explain this and I feel your pain. As you said, it would be easier if there was just one way to do things. As you have noticed, everyone has their own twist/procedure and it is very confusing. I can't promise how soon I can do this but I will try to make a short video of what you want to do and shoot it from various angle. I'm no Steven Spielberg, but I can tray and give it a shot if you think it will help.

Charles Nicholls said:

Update: I tried slowing the speed down to 650RPM I tried facing the flute out as I assume you are supposed to when working with end grain and working from the center outward nothing I do works it always catches unless I hold the chisel about a half inch in and hold it there it will cut, if I try going to the outside it hangs and throws the piece off the lathe, if I try going in even just a bit it hangs. I just do not understand this. I now have a piece of wood that looks like an engine off a 747\

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Charles
nicholls61@att.net
http://www.nichollswoodworks.com
This website is new so it doesn't have much to it yet but you are welcome to take a look

Yours is fine. Again, many ways to accomplish the same thing. The method I describe for sharpening the scraper is, for me, a little easier to set up on my grinder- less angles to fuss with. Scrapers are always used slightly BELOW the horizontal center line of a work piece. Maybe that is part of the problem.

Charles Nicholls said:

Actually that is part of the problem, most of what you describe I did NOT see, because the camera angle was such that all you really saw is the person talking until he dragged the flute across the bottom of the bowl to make it flat. I have seen videos of people that start their cut at just top left of center(say about an inch) and work toward center then after that cut, move out another inch and repeat until the entire face is concave then work from the far outside in until they get the shape they want. Again though they have a completely different grind on their chisel than I do, most of which are the fingernail type or at least that's what they call it.

Ayway here is that scraper I was trying to show you earlier when the camera died.

Unfortunately the image came out blurry, i dont know why it does that but it will if I don't use the flash which will them be so bright, you cant see anything anyway.

anyway this was the one that had the bad spot in it, i finaly got that out wihout changing the angle any but it still wont cut anything other tan my finger.

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Charles
nicholls61@att.net
http://www.nichollswoodworks.com
This website is new so it doesn't have much to it yet but you are welcome to take a look

Charles,

I just watched the video from your link. Two things I noticed. First, as I said, there are so many ways to do the same thing. The presenter here does in fact move the gouge from the center out to the edge and it works for him. I get a catch every time I try that- but my gouges do not have fingernail grinds as his does. Second, it looks like he is using a piece of a tree branch and it appears not to be thoroughly dried- from the ribbons of shavings. Green/wet wood is much easier to turn than dried wood. If you could get a piece of a branch and give it a try, you might be surprised at the difference.

Lewis Kauffman said:

Charles,

In the first video, the presenter was using the gouge to just flatten the entire surface of the piece PRIOR to digging out the bowl. That can be done with the flute pointed away from the center. You noticed the second video presenter had the flute pointed towards the bowl center.  He started near and to the left of center and pushed the tip/open flute towards the center. You also saw that he made the point that the tool rest was below the centerline of the work piece. This is done so that the lower cutting edge of the flute/tip contacts the work piece as it is sweeping down and slightly away from the tool. What is not really apparent is the gouge is held at an angle both horizontally and vertically as the tool touches the work piece. The angle, horizontally, is such that the bevel on the tip rubs on the work piece more so than just the tip. The angle vertically, is such that the lower cutting edge of the flute/tip is all that contacts the work piece. As far as I can tell, you always work a bowl gouge - when digging out the center, from the outside edge towards the center. Somewhere I read a "rule" to always move a gouge from "High to Low". It is really difficult to explain this and I feel your pain. As you said, it would be easier if there was just one way to do things. As you have noticed, everyone has their own twist/procedure and it is very confusing. I can't promise how soon I can do this but I will try to make a short video of what you want to do and shoot it from various angle. I'm no Steven Spielberg, but I can tray and give it a shot if you think it will help.

Charles Nicholls said:

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Lew-
Time traveler. Purveyor of the world's finest custom rolling pins!

Nothing like a little success to raise the spirits! Looking at this piece and the previous attempt, notice you hollowed the "center" deeper. Keeping the center as the "lowest/deepest" point helps guide the tool and lessens the chance of a catch. Don't stop now, you're getting the hang of it! Also, remember, the smaller the work piece, the smaller the tool needs to be to prevent catches. 

Charles Nicholls said:

Good morning all!

Anyway that pice of walnut there that I spent so much money on has gone to waste because it split so badly, now all i have is a piece of wood that is going to pen blanks :/

On a more positive note I gave up trying to cut end grain with those chisels, it just refused to work. I found a small piece of wood about 2" square that was sent to me and was not end grain and decided to see if you all were correct that the non end grain wood would cut well, and it did! I only had one minor catch that happened when i tried to make the wall of the piece a bit thinner. Please note that this is my first successful bowl like turning, so it doesn't look great at all, but at least it was fun. I think this was a piece of that old barn wood that Steven sent me.

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Charles
nicholls61@att.net
http://www.nichollswoodworks.com
This website is new so it doesn't have much to it yet but you are welcome to take a look