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John Wright

Walker Turner Driver Line model 700 Band Saw

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Hi everyone, glad I found this forum.


I have a 1932 Walker Turned Driver Line model 700 Band Saw.  Its complete except the top adjusting mechanism has a broken bracket.  I have attaced some photos.



If anyone here knows where I can find a replacement part or maybe get this one repaired I would be in your debt.



As I said in my intro, I love restoring old woodworking tools.  I spent some time on OWWM but they have this thing about even mentioning Craigslist in any way shape or form.  I have looked there but no success at all.  So I'm thinking new faces and new ideas.



Many thanks for any help or information.



Johnning-wheelpart-5416-73.jpgning-topbracker-5416-89.jpg

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Hi John,


First off welcome to the site.


ning-chinscratch-5451-40.gif


I'm assuming this is a 12" Walker Turner model BN730 Band Saw.


Could you post more photos of the complete machine so I can better ID what you have?


Walker Turner supplied Sears with several of their machines labled both as Driver Line, and under the Sears Craftsman and Companion series names.


My first go to search for parts is ebay.( check under Walker Turner, Sears Craftsman, Companion)


Otherwise, I've got some back channel contacts (on that other website) I can check with.


Also if the part is cast iron, it can be brazed. It appears you have all of the parts.


If it is cast pot metal, it can be repaired with a product called Muggy Weld.


 


Harry,


Don't send any more snow my way, I'm forwarding it to John Moody.


ning-devillaughing-5451-30.gif


After all, why should we have all the fun?


ning-banginghead-5451-32.gif


 


Larry


ning-oldmansmiley-5451-39.gif


Old Woodworking Machinery Forum Host


 


 


 


 

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You're right, Larry, this is way too much fun for us!


Right now it's sunny and 16*. Have more snow coming this week and temps around 0* for the high.


Sure wish we could send it  to both John's. They need the moisture!




Harry Brink
Bulldog Woodworking
Montana

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Larry,



Actually a Walker-Turner Driver Line Model 700 "Snow Flake".that was badged Craftsman.   I have a few more photos that I will post below.  I have posted to OWWM before I left that forum, but no answers in the last year.  I did just miss one on Ebay a while back.  I have a friend who is an Engineer with all the metal machines I wish I had.  He is also a certified Navy Diver and Undersea Welder.  He couldn't figure out what kind of metal it is.  I have another friend who is a machinest, I'm going to take it to him next week.



As for the snow, can you send some this way.  Its been nothing but cold here in Omaha all winter.  My yard is so dry the ground is cracking.  We just had our first snow this year yesterday.  All of about 2 inches and dry as dust.



Really sad, too cold to work in my shop but too nice to be inside.  A real quandary



What part of the country ar you located in?



Heres a view of the saw itself.  The actual parts I need are still with my friend.


ning-bandsaw-5448-28.jpg.ning-bs12ads-5448-67.jpg



The part I need is BN10 and BN11.





Larry Buskirk said:


Hi John,


First off welcome to the site.


ning-chinscratch-5448-94.gif


I'm assuming this is a 12" Walker Turner model BN730 Band Saw.


Could you post more photos of the complete machine so I can better ID what you have?


Walker Turner supplied Sears with several of their machines labled both as Driver Line, and under the Sears Craftsman and Companion series names.


My first go to search for parts is ebay.( check under Walker Turner, Sears Craftsman, Companion)


Otherwise, I've got some back channel contacts (on that other website) I can check with.


Also if the part is cast iron, it can be brazed. It appears you have all of the parts.


If it is cast pot metal, it can be repaired with a product called Muggy Weld.


 


Harry,


Don't send any more snow my way, I'm forwarding it to John Moody.


ning-devillaughing-5448-59.gif


After all, why should we have all the fun?


ning-banginghead-5448-31.gif


 


Larry


ning-oldmansmiley-5448-46.gif


Old Woodworking Machinery Forum Host


 


 


 


 




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John,


I just went through your post on that other website. Nice early Snowflake!


If the part is not magnetic, it is probably cast Zamak which is a mix of Zinc, Aluminum, Magnesium, and Copper.


It was used quite heavily during the early 1930's into the 1940's


I've heard of success repairing items made of this using the Muggy Weld product.


I've never used it myself. but it appears to be alot like siver solder, just higher temp.


It may also be repairable by a good welder using a HeliArc welding process.


 


I'm located in S.E. Wisconsin between Milwaukee, and Chicago Ill.


 


Larry


ning-oldmansmiley-5447-92.gif


Old Woodworking Machinery Forum Host


 

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Yea,  I was a member of that site for over three years.  But it just got too, don't know, just too narrowly focused on trying to keep any and all references to CL, or any advertisement off the forum.  I mean they censored me because I posted that while watching TV I frequrntly checked out "lists" for nuggets.  The objected to the term lists, said I was alluding to Craigs List.  Wish I could read minds as well as they can.  Anyway, I didn't spend 22 years defending our country and the right of free speach to have someone I don't even know tell me what I can say and not say.  These freedoms are just too important to me, so I left.


Anyway, enought of my ranting, I will check out the Muggy Weld process/site.  I really appreciate the information. 



When I was in SAC, my last Combat assignment was at Wurtsmith.  At that time I had a cousin in the Wisconson Guard in Milwaukee.  Never been there but its on my list, my wife has been looking at a conference in that area.  May have to join her.  I've heard the fishings pretty good up that way.
Larry Buskirk said:


John,


I just went through your post on that other website. Nice early Snowflake!


If the part is not magnetic, it is probably cast Zamak which is a mix of Zinc, Aluminum, Magnesium, and Copper.


It was used quite heavily during the early 1930's into the 1940's


I've heard of success repairing items made of this using the Muggy Weld product.


I've never used it myself. but it appears to be alot like siver solder, just higher temp.


It may also be repairable by a good welder using a HeliArc welding process.


 


I'm located in S.E. Wisconsin between Milwaukee, and Chicago Ill.


 


Larry


ning-oldmansmiley-5445-82.gif


Old Woodworking Machinery Forum Host


 




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I can, but I don't have the parts right now.  I should be getting them back next weekend.  As soon as I do I'll post better shots of the two pieces.



The other problem I'm going to have is removing the pin from the support.  The lower picture shows the pin pretty well.  Not sure how I'm going to handle that little problem.  I'm thinking a little heat and some gentle persuasion with a drift and hammer.

Cliff said:


Is that Cast?



It can be welded but ya gotta have a way to heat the whole bracket up to 900F or higher and hold it there slowly cooling it after the weld.



Can ya take some better pictures?






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I'm having a hard  time figuring out what the parts actually look like.  I've never seen one in person so it's all about the pics.


Larger format  and higher resolution would be helpful.



I'm fairly certain that the whole assembly you need could be fabbed up from steel and welded together


The rings  that capture the shaft that is still on the machine could be made from large hex nuts and drilled out to get the right slip fit then welded to a  1/4" or 1/2" thick bit of plate that  was drilled  for that stub shaft the wheel is on  and maybe that shaft welded in to the plate from the back.



What kind of bearing is in the shaft/wheel interface?


What keeps the wheel on the shaft?



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As soon as I get them back, I'll get better pics. The bearings are bronze sleeve bearings.



Cliff said:

I'm having a hard  time figuring out what the parts actually look like.  I've never seen one in person so it's all about the pics.

Larger format  and higher resolution would be helpful.

I'm fairly certain that the whole assembly you need could be fabbed up from steel and welded together

The rings  that capture the shaft that is still on the machine could be made from large hex nuts and drilled out to get the right slip fit then welded to a  1/4" or 1/2" thick bit of plate that  was drilled  for that stub shaft the wheel is on  and maybe that shaft welded in to the plate from the back.

What kind of bearing is in the shaft/wheel interface?

What keeps the wheel on the shaft?

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Ok,  Got the parts back and they are in much worse shape than when I dropped them off.  In fact I am afraid the parts are so bad as to be beyond salvage.  Here are some photos.



First, all parts as they should go together


ning-assembly-5439-38.jpg?width=721The shaft on the left is where the upper wheel attaches



Here is the bracket to the right.  When I gave it to him, it was all together with no broken parts.  As you can see now it has one of the ears broken.  I think this might be fixable, maybe with muggy weld?



ning-brakcet4-5439-70.jpg?width=721As you can see the right shaft holder has been broken off.  I suspect it was broken when they tried to get the shaft out.



Here is how the pivot bar is supposed to fit.  I think the rod was driven on after the part was heated.  But I could be worng.



ning-pivot2-5439-5.jpg?width=721Here is the shaft plate/shaft.  As you can see its pretty buggered up.  I really don't think there is any hope of doing any thing with this part.



ning-shaftholert-5439-54.jpg?width=721I don't think there is enough here to work with, even if I can find a way to weld it.  The worst part is that I don't have any better photos than the one I originally included.  So unless I can find someone with one that I can get measurements from I may be out of luch.


Here's the shaft from the other side.  I think I'll try to punch out the shaft first, then see what I can do about the plate that it is supported by.  I'm just not too hopefull about finding the parts I need. 


ning-shaftholder2-5439-67.jpg?width=721I may just clean things up and either part it out, or just put it in storage until I can find the part I need, then finish the restore.



If anyone has any ideas, I'm all ears.  This is a nice saw and from a great era.

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Oh My  what a hash that got turned into.


What was the purpose of this other person's possession, however temporary?   A loan?



Conceivably the  whole part could be fabbed up with a stick welder. a slow speed drill press. and an angle grinder to cut the steel.  Even the hex to go on the shaft.   1/4" should be heavy enough for most of it. 


I'd make the hex  by clamping cut out steel coupons to the  hex shaft (sprayed with anti splatter)  and tack-welding them together.  Then finish  welding the bulk on the bench.  If no square tubing can  be had the size needed then maybe repeat that process to fab the internal square too.  Once that was built the rest seems pretty straightforward.    To mount the shafts, I'd not go for a press fit. I'd drill and tap for allen bolts to pull the shafts against the collars, or just weld 'em in permanently


Other than that,  I suspect it's a search for parts on the web.


Have you posted on OWM?


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Cliff,


Thank you for your insight.  I let him take them to fix the parts.  I thought he could weld anything, at least that's what he told be.  He's a very good friend and a customer for my other business, so I thought I should give it a shot.  Never again.



As for fabrication, I think I can muggy weld the ear on the larger piece.  Then, I can draw up the wheel mounting fixture.  I'm not sure its all there after I looked at it.  I may have to fiddle a little to try and figure out how it all goes together.



AS for OWM, you have to be a member to post as with most forums.  The problem is with the originator.  He has a problem with any mention or even inference to Craigslist or any other classified source.  I have no idea why, it seems stupid to me, but its his forum, so I left after two years as a member.  Too bad to, because there are some really great people on that forum as there are here.  I can still read it of course, and the Vintage Machinery .com site is invaluable.  However, nothing on this particular saw.  I have more research to do, but nothing so far.



I just missed the part on ebay a while back.  So I'll keep looking.



But, thanks for the ideas, I will look into them.  I don't have any way of welding, don't have a welder, not sure I have enough power in my shop to even support one.  I only have 20 amp service to the shop.




Cliff said:


Oh My  what a hash that got turned into.


What was the purpose of this other person's possession, however temporary?   A loan?



Conceivably the  whole part could be fabbed up with a stick welder. a slow speed drill press. and an angle grinder to cut the steel.  Even the hex to go on the shaft.   1/4" should be heavy enough for most of it. 


I'd make the hex  by clamping cut out steel coupons to the  hex shaft (sprayed with anti splatter)  and tack-welding them together.  Then finish  welding the bulk on the bench.  If no square tubing can  be had the size needed then maybe repeat that process to fab the internal square too.  Once that was built the rest seems pretty straightforward.    To mount the shafts, I'd not go for a press fit. I'd drill and tap for allen bolts to pull the shafts against the collars, or just weld 'em in permanently


Other than that,  I suspect it's a search for parts on the web.


Have you posted on OWM?





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Welding cast iron  is a real beast.  I dunno nuthin bout  muggy   But I do TIG MIG and stick like a real amateur. Which means it don't look great, but it sticks together when I'm done.  I've done cast iron before - and  - after I knew what I was doing.


My "before" was a disaster  - - like what you have. 


I don't  think there is anything that can be done with that. It looks like it suffers from the same problems I had.


After I learned how to do it, I stopped  trying to do it on any thing larger than  small stuff because  I don't have a heat treat oven that  can go to 900F and If I can't heat  the entire part evenly  with MappPro,  then I can't pre-heat it properly.  So there's no point.



The problem with cast is the thermal expansion.  Cast  iron really expands like crazy when hot and the nickel weld rod not so much, so you can weld a spot in  the casting and as it cools it all pulls  itself apart like it was rotting  cheese.  and POP the welded area breaks free of the rest.


So ya gotta heat the whole part not just the area to be welded, but the entire part  - even if it's an engine block  - ya gotta heat the whole bleeding thing to 900F or higher.  And then ya gotta control the cooling rate.



The Muggy weld stick is $130 a pound.    For that  they should include a full on girlfriend experience with a room full of supermodels.


I don't think they can help you though not muggy and not Certanium either who makes a wonderful cast iron stick welding rod for  a thousand dollars for 10 pounds.


 Reason  I don't think they can help you is that the damage is already done.  The cast iron is already stressed and cracked and there's just no way you can know how bad  the damage is.


I suspect if you magnafluxed and X-rayed the part you'd find it is a whole pack of spider cracks.



However what's the harm of trying?  What's the worst that can happen?  It won't blow up and kill anyone.


Maybe they'll send you a sample.  Maybe you can find a local welder with a certification who will discuss it with you. 








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Cliff,



Many thanks.  But the parts are not cast.  I am not completely sure what they are, but my bet is pot metal.  My friend thought aluminum, then tried another method, but nothing worked.  That's why I was thinking about muggy weld.  At least for the dog ear on the large piece.  At least I'll give it a try to see what happens.  Most people I've talked to have said you can't weld pot metal.  


I am thinking about building a small foundry, I have all the components, so if I get it done, I have plenty of scrap potmetal around that I can use to cast new parts.  The large piece would be a real problem to cast I think, but the smaller piece shouldn't be much of a problem.  That would be fun to try at any rate.

Cliff said:


Welding cast iron  is a real beast.  I dunno nuthin bout  muggy   But I do TIG MIG and stick like a real amateur. Which means it don't look great, but it sticks together when I'm done.  I've done cast iron before - and  - after I knew what I was doing.


My "before" was a disaster  - - like what you have. 


I don't  think there is anything that can be done with that. It looks like it suffers from the same problems I had.


After I learned how to do it, I stopped  trying to do it on any thing larger than  small stuff because  I don't have a heat treat oven that  can go to 900F and If I can't heat  the entire part evenly  with MappPro,  then I can't pre-heat it properly.  So there's no point.



The problem with cast is the thermal expansion.  Cast  iron really expands like crazy when hot and the nickel weld rod not so much, so you can weld a spot in  the casting and as it cools it all pulls  itself apart like it was rotting  cheese.  and POP the welded area breaks free of the rest.


So ya gotta heat the whole part not just the area to be welded, but the entire part  - even if it's an engine block  - ya gotta heat the whole bleeding thing to 900F or higher.  And then ya gotta control the cooling rate.



The Muggy weld stick is $130 a pound.    For that  they should include a full on girlfriend experience with a room full of supermodels.


I don't think they can help you though not muggy and not Certanium either who makes a wonderful cast iron stick welding rod for  a thousand dollars for 10 pounds.


 Reason  I don't think they can help you is that the damage is already done.  The cast iron is already stressed and cracked and there's just no way you can know how bad  the damage is.


I suspect if you magnafluxed and X-rayed the part you'd find it is a whole pack of spider cracks.



However what's the harm of trying?  What's the worst that can happen?  It won't blow up and kill anyone.


Maybe they'll send you a sample.  Maybe you can find a local welder with a certification who will discuss it with you. 











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Hmmm   Pot metal for a highly stressed part?  I dunno 'bout the wisdom of that.   It's great for compressive strength but  that's about it.   It has absolutely nothing  for a  Young's Modulus, no hysteresis characteristics at all. Once it's flexed, it's toast.



I bet the alloy you have  is ZAMAK which was better than pot metal and there's a couple versions of it still in use today.


Zamak is zinc, copper, aluminum  and magnesium.  Great for die casting. Heavily used starting in the 1930s and later

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