Gene Howe Posted September 8, 2017 Report Share Posted September 8, 2017 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post difalkner Posted September 8, 2017 Popular Post Report Share Posted September 8, 2017 As a fairly new CNC owner I disagree with what he's saying. I built our CNC (by hand) and the things I build and create use whatever tool I choose in our arsenal of shop tools. If it makes sense to make a cut on the table saw then I use the table saw. If that same cut makes sense to be done on the CNC then I'll use the CNC. When I deliver a piece I have created the topic of 'which tools did you use' never comes up. If someone wants to know I'll tell them every step. I can do delicate inlay work completely by hand with exotic woods and Abalone but I'd rather use my Dremel on a router base to cut the pockets. I still use a fret saw, by hand, to cut the small pieces to be inlaid, though. Well guess what; I now have a larger and more accurate 'Dremel' and if it makes sense to cut the pockets on the CNC then that's where they'll be cut. As long as the finished product meets my standards then how I got there is inconsequential. The CNC has opened up my creative juices to attempt things I may have wanted to do in the past but either didn't have the right tooling or the means didn't justify the end. Now when I have an idea I evaluate the quickest, safest, and most efficient method to achieve that end result. It might involve a drum sander with digital capabilities and also my 1944 Delta 24" scroll saw but the two eras of woodworking tools fit nicely together in my shop to create the result for the idea I have in mind. Something else I realized in the last couple of days on the CNC is that I now have a very large and accurate planer. I don't have a helical head planer so surfacing an end grain cutting board is out of the question. I can use the drum sander but that takes a while and if the glue up shifted the boards even slightly then working down through each grit from 80 to 220 takes a while. But, I can place the cutting board on the CNC table, make a few passes with a 1.5" surfacing bit, and in mere minutes I have a very flat and well surfaced cutting board. I'm glad I know how to do woodworking completely by hand but I'm also glad I have tools to make the job easier and quicker without sacrificing quality and the freedom to choose whichever method I deem best. My $0.02... David p_toad, Cal, MEBCWD and 2 others 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Howe Posted September 8, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 8, 2017 7 minutes ago, difalkner said: I'm glad I know how to do woodworking completely by hand but I'm also glad I have tools to make the job easier and quicker without sacrificing quality and the freedom to choose whichever method I deem best. And, that's what it's all about. I don't think he's suggesting that CNCs are not useful. I follow him on YouTube and, he uses a good many tools and templates that wouldn't be possible without a CNC. difalkner 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4DThinker Posted September 8, 2017 Report Share Posted September 8, 2017 IMO a pointless TED talk. Nothing is made by hand/hands alone. Hands are just one of the tools some humans use to fashion useful or decorative things with. Everything made by humans is human-made. Automation starts when we first realize we can make our hands do exactly what we are thinking. We have automated those randomly flailing infant hands. There is no creative difference between two original human-made things no matter how they are realized. Your hands may have pulled a saw back and forth, or moved a mouse back and forth to draw a toolpath to make the CNC move back and forth. I'll suggest that controlling the mouse and using the CAD/CAM software was a higher level skill than moving a saw through wood was. You can always truthfully claim "You made that" if you are the human who instigated the realization of the final product from raw materials. "Craftsman: a person who practices or is highly skilled in a craft; artisan." states nothing about the process that craftsman uses to produce his/her fine product. If you have added CNC processes to the repertoire of "tools" used to get from idea to finished piece then IMO you are an even MORE highly skilled craftsman. 4D p_toad, MEBCWD and difalkner 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
difalkner Posted September 8, 2017 Report Share Posted September 8, 2017 Back in the 80's and early 90's when I had my furniture design and restoration business and would build things for people, I often heard two comments - 1) "This is perfect!" I would tell them it was handmade. 2) "I can see slight differences between the left side and right side." I would tell them it was handmade. In both cases they were satisfied and I must have said that 50 times over the 6 or 7 years I had my business. It may be cool to use a CNC, own a CNC, maybe even cooler that I built my own CNC, but in the end the finished piece needs to meet a certain level of craftsmanship, depending on the item, and as long as that is met the journey from tree to finished project may be interesting to some but is not relevant to most. p_toad, Gene Howe and MEBCWD 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadio Posted September 9, 2017 Report Share Posted September 9, 2017 (edited) 8 hours ago, 4DThinker said: IMO a pointless TED talk. Nothing is made by hand/hands alone. Hands are just one of the tools some humans use to fashion useful or decorative things with. Everything made by humans is human-made. Automation starts when we first realize we can make our hands do exactly what we are thinking. We have automated those randomly flailing infant hands. There is no creative difference between two original human-made things no matter how they are realized. Your hands may have pulled a saw back and forth, or moved a mouse back and forth to draw a toolpath to make the CNC move back and forth. I'll suggest that controlling the mouse and using the CAD/CAM software was a higher level skill than moving a saw through wood was. You can always truthfully claim "You made that" if you are the human who instigated the realization of the final product from raw materials. "Craftsman: a person who practices or is highly skilled in a craft; artisan." states nothing about the process that craftsman uses to produce his/her fine product. If you have added CNC processes to the repertoire of "tools" used to get from idea to finished piece then IMO you are an even MORE highly skilled craftsman. 4D I hear what you are saying , do not agree when you say that technically inclined are more highly skilled. Tell that to the fellow from China, or India that several hundred years ago carved furniture that can not even today be equaled by a cnc machine with an Einstien brain running it. Edited September 9, 2017 by Dadio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4DThinker Posted September 9, 2017 Report Share Posted September 9, 2017 I'm not claiming that computer skills alone are enough to make a craftsman. I'm stating that if a craftsman who already is very skilled adds a CNC to his shop and masters its use then he is now more skilled than he was before adding the CNC. Much the same as we get more capable as we add any new skills to our repertoire. difalkner 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadio Posted September 9, 2017 Report Share Posted September 9, 2017 40 minutes ago, 4DThinker said: I'm not claiming that computer skills alone are enough to make a craftsman. I'm stating that if a craftsman who already is very skilled adds a CNC to his shop and masters its use then he is now more skilled than he was before adding the CNC. Much the same as we get more capable as we add any new skills to our repertoire. He has just added the CNC skill and can do CNC work some of which can not be done by another skilled craftsman with ordinary woodworking tools. Maybe he HAS more skills, but he is not MORE skilled. IMHO. I have lots of respect for the CNC woodworker, on the other hand I have more respect for the old guy who quit school in the 8th grade and can turn out the most beautiful furniture you can imagine using nothing but hand tools. Herb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Howe Posted September 9, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 9, 2017 (edited) My cancerous prostate was treated with a monstrous CNC laser called Cyberknife. It was precise and painless. Thanks to that technology, this old luddite can continue to muddle along, building stuff with my hands touching and yes, caressing every piece and lovingly guiding every tool. The technicians who programmed and operated that Cyberknife equipment were undoubtedly highly skilled, thank God. But none of them even knew my name. Edited September 9, 2017 by Gene Howe difalkner 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post MEBCWD Posted September 30, 2017 Popular Post Report Share Posted September 30, 2017 The large companies can afford CNC machines that have auto feeders for material, vacuum tables to hold the material while it is cut and they are tight heavy machines and make all the cuts precisely and most have automated cleanup processes with more machinery. Getting the parts from the CNC to the cleanup machines often is done with other automated equipment. On to the finish department where the finish is applied by the automated sprayers then turned so the back side can be finished, air and heat dryed. Then the parts are viewed buy a computer scanner and weighed buy computer connected scales where rejected parts are removed mechanically before they go to the automated packaging machine. Of course that is all automated so parts are divided by order, boxed and labeled for shipment to each customer. I think the hobbyist CNC user probably has more hands on work on a project than most people realize. The hobby machine often leaves at least some cleanup work that the maker needs to do with smaller power tools and often hand tools to get the quality they are wanting for each piece. They handle the piece and look for the imperfections so they can correct them. They take the time to prep the part for finish going from grit to small grit paper until they are satisfied that the piece is ready for finish, They take care to apply enough finish and make sure they don't apply too much that problems develop. They inspect it one last time before they carefully wrap it for shipment to the waiting customer. We CNC users with the smaller footprint machines make hand made items, often more hand made than people realize. I have never hidden the fact that I use CNC equipment and people have never cared and saw the care I had given the piece and the value they were getting. joe the gas man, honesttjohn, difalkner and 2 others 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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