Popular Post Artie Posted November 24, 2020 Popular Post Report Share Posted November 24, 2020 Hi, I am a newbie to woodworking. Some of the stuff I’ve built is still actually together. I am learning. In my mind (more so than in the shop) I get how the stuff is supposed to go together. Finishing I know nothing about, and I suck at it. So far I mostly use foam brushes, and stain or paint. I’m liking General Finishes. The finish on my stuff kinda looks like it came from a 6’th grade shop class. Is this a progressive thing? Do I have to get good with brushes before I can think about a spray system? Is it easy (?) to learn how to use a spray system? Is there anything feasible for a small shop, one guy hobbyist? Before I order a bunch of books and try to wade through them, figuring out what may be relative to me, and how much of what I’ve read, do I actually understand, So.......anyone who wished to give some advice/opinions/thoughts/pointers, I am anxious to start thinking/pondering/considering about getting more competent with my finishing. Thank you. Cal, DuckSoup, JimM and 3 others 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Al B Posted November 24, 2020 Popular Post Report Share Posted November 24, 2020 Hey Artie, join the club! Finishing is most everyone's nightmare. I keep it simple . Selection of the wood for a project is most important , then let the wood do the talking. I often use a water base urethane. 2 coats of wipe-on seals the grain . You can then sand lightly to remove any raised grain or dust that might have attached itself. Then apply 3 coats and lightly sand and continue with 3 more coats.Sounds like a long process, but the thin coat of water base urethane dries fast so you can apply several coats in a day. I've opted at times to apply the first wipe-on coat sand then after sanding, apply a brush -on coat, Sand and finish with 3 wipe on coats. For painted projects, I use a coat of white primer, sand lightly then apply the finishing colors. Like I said, I'm no expert, but this has worked for me. JimM, Gunny, lew and 4 others 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post kmealy Posted November 24, 2020 Popular Post Report Share Posted November 24, 2020 Some of the things I teach about a good brushed finish (for oil-based varnishes) * Get a good brush, at least for the final coat. I have a "badger hair brush" that I've used for 30+ years. For an oil-based finish, use a natural bristle brush. * For each coat, apply as much as needed and as little as possible. I'd rather put on 4 light coats than 2 heavy ones that look like plastic puke. * Tip-off at the end of each coat. This can fill the low areas and cut down the high areas. Hold the brush lightly and nearly vertically and take long light strokes all the way across the piece. Use a rag to wipe of excess on the brush if any. * Sand between every coat. I use P400 and/or 7448 (light gray) Scotch-Brite pads. The sandpaper knocks down the high spots and the Scotch-Brite creates an even dullness so subsequent coats have something to bite into. * Thin the varnish -- due to VOC regulations, most are too thick out of the can. Applying a wipe on oil varnish with a cloth is a good alternative and nearly foolproof. * Thin the varnish about 50-50 with mineral spirits * Wipe on a very light coat * When no longer sticky, you can apply a second coat same day * " " " " " " " " third coat the next day * Let dry overnight and repeat above * Let dry overnight and repeat above again I have almost always sprayed w/b finishes because a) that is what I was taught and b) I have a sprayer * "Spray and go away" -- it will look terrible right after spraying. It will be fine. Don't fuss with it. It dries very fast so don't try to make corrections. * Sand between coats as for a brushed oil-based finish JimM, FlGatorwood, Artie and 4 others 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Fred W. Hargis Jr Posted November 24, 2020 Popular Post Report Share Posted November 24, 2020 Keith's advice doesn't need my endorsement, but he is spot-on. One more thing to consider...the brushes only last 30 years if you have a good cleaning regimen. I use a three jar method, and while I don't have any that lasted 30 years I do have a couple that are over 10 years old and still good. FlGatorwood, Artie, Cal and 2 others 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post JimM Posted November 24, 2020 Popular Post Report Share Posted November 24, 2020 9 hours ago, Artie said: Is there anything feasible for a small shop, one guy hobbyist? In an earlier thread, several members referred to a simple spray system called cricket, or something like that. Using mason jars that could be resealed easily for future re-use. For me (and IIRC you too Artie), the combination of a basement shop and the NE climate makes the odors generated from finishing a major consideration. lew, Artie, DuckSoup and 2 others 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artie Posted November 24, 2020 Author Report Share Posted November 24, 2020 So my main question is, if I suck at painting with a brush, will I suck even more with a sprayer? I’m curious about getting a sprayer. This will be in my basement shop, so I’m guessing I’m limited to water based products only. (don’t want the burner setting off any explosions). If spraying isn’t much more difficult than brush painting, and it appears to be faster for larger projects, any recommendations? Earlex? Fuji? Apollo? Other? Models? Accessories? Pointers? Don’t bother? I’m like a dry sponge, trying to soak up knowledge (or sumpin like that). lew, Cal, FlGatorwood and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmealy Posted November 24, 2020 Report Share Posted November 24, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, Fred W. Hargis Jr said: Keith's advice doesn't need my endorsement, but he is spot-on. One more thing to consider...the brushes only last 30 years if you have a good cleaning regimen. I use a three jar method, and while I don't have any that lasted 30 years I do have a couple that are over 10 years old and still good. Yes, I use the three jar system, too. In a nutshell, 3 jars of paint thinner used sequentially, #1, #2, then #3. First, I wipe the brush off with a rag. The first one(#1) has the most sludge in the bottom and less as you go along. When jar #1 gets too nasty, promote jar #2 to be #1, jar #3 to be #2, and start a new jar #3. There is no reason why you need fresh paint thinner every time. I also do a final rinse in lacquer thinner (jar #4?) Before each use, I wet the brush in paint thinner and let it flow up to the ferrule, then wipe off excess. When the brush gets too stiff, I put it in a jar with NMP paint remover and let it sit overnight. Rinse out and you're good for a few more years. -------------- If you are brushing shellac or lacquer, you don't need to be so careful. Soaking in DNA or lacquer thinner for a few minutes before use gets them ready. Use separate brushes for each of these. --------- Spraying is faster. How much depends on what you are doing. It might take an hour to brush out a chair with lots of spindles, stretchers, and turned parts. Spray in 2 minutes. But if you are doing one small thing like a box, it will take more time to clean the gun than you save applying finish. If you are doing 6 chairs, you'll be ahead. I like HVLP systems. But I've used the cheap Harbor Freight guns for things like spray stains, shellac, and lacquer finishes. This assumes you already have a fairly large compressor and don't have to go out and buy one just for spraying. Edited November 24, 2020 by kmealy FlGatorwood, Fred W. Hargis Jr, lew and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallpatch Posted November 24, 2020 Report Share Posted November 24, 2020 Artie, what size things are you wanting to finish? Cal and lew 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artie Posted November 24, 2020 Author Report Share Posted November 24, 2020 Well right now I’m trying to make 10 of the Kissmass trees that were in the last issue of woodcraft magazine. So I have 300 pieces of wood, I want to paint. 2 coats primer, 2 coats green. The largest piece is 12 inches X 1/2 inch X 1 1/8 inch. The thought my little pea brain had was that spraying might be both faster and have a better looking end result. I see some sprayers need a separate compressor, and some have a turbine built in. I know nothing about these. Rockler shows one for under $400 that had a lot of raves (not that raves can’t be faked). As Jim pointed out, this is gonna take place in our basement. If I’m using water based primer/paint how strong an odor, if any? I don’t really smell any when I brush it. Right now a sprayer is in th budget, But I don’t want to buy something that is not gonna do what I want it to. Cal, Al B and FlGatorwood 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Al B Posted November 24, 2020 Popular Post Report Share Posted November 24, 2020 56 minutes ago, Smallpatch said: Artie, what size things are you wanting to finish? My question exactly. Will it be worth the time to set up a sprayer and then clean it for the projects you're making. I know you don't plan to get involved with large projects just based on the room you have to work in. You don't have the option of setting up a spray room, so overspray in the shop might be a problem. I bought a Wagner hvlp unit with 2 spray guns, one for large projects and one for small tasks. I've never had a project that justified using them in my shop.. Both sprayers still in the box and have never been used. The information the experts are giving you is great, but is it what you need in your shop. Good brushes and keeping those brushes clean is important as has been said by others. Don't apply thick coats, and light sanding are key to providing a good looking finish whether it is paint, varnish, shellac, urethane or other finish. Smallpatch might have some insight for you about air brushing small projects. If you think you really want to go with spray painting, you are welcomed to the Wagner hvlp I have. I've had it for a couple of years and never used it. Cal, Artie, FlGatorwood and 2 others 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Danl Posted November 24, 2020 Popular Post Report Share Posted November 24, 2020 A also have a basement shop. This is my paint booth for rattle can finish. I brush on wb paint without any concern. All of my HVLP spraying is done in the garage. I use a spray system which is driven by using a separate compressor. The gun operates at ~ 20 psi which has to much overspray for the basement. I see on youtube videos folks spraying with the FUJI in their shop without any concerns for overspray. The FUJI turbine operates at ~ 9 psi. Danl JimM, Al B, Artie and 4 others 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Danl Posted November 24, 2020 Popular Post Report Share Posted November 24, 2020 I would like to pass along what I have used to obtain good spraying results. No way am I saying, “this is how you have to do it”. I am a hobby woodworker. If you want a quality finish, you need to practice, practice, and practice. Use more than cardboard when you practice. Also practice on sample wood projects. If using a HVLP system, make sure your gun and air compressor are compatible. I believe most hobby air compressors do not put out a high enough CFM to atomize the paint adequately. I use a low price HVLP gun with a 33 gal. Craftsman air compressor. The compressor’s CFM ratings are 8.6 CFM @ 40 psi and 6.4 CFM @ 90 psi. I use both a filter and a regulator on the gun. I have the regulator closest to the gun. I dial down the line pressure to approx. 2X gun gun/spray pressure. My gun/spray psi is between 18 – 30 psi when the trigger is pulled. I purchased the book, SPRAY FINISHING made simple by Jeff Jewett. Jeff has a lot of good information. When spraying paint, I spray the primer and the paint with a 2.0 mm needle. Woodcraft sells the 2.0 mm needle kit which fits the HF gun and others. You will have to adjust the material flow valve to get desired results. With the gun I use, the flow rate is approx. 1-1/2 to 2 full turns. Every time I spray a finish, I take notes. I record the following: date, time, project, finish, temp, humidity, tank pressure, line pressure, gun pressure, and flow rate. I spray in an unfinished garage and it can get cold or hot with high humidity. I try to spray on days where the temp is between 65 – 85 deg F and the humidity is below 70%. Having too low humidity is not an issue for me. I spray almost exclusively SW products, but I do not purchase my material from the stores in the strip malls located everywhere. I purchase all my material from a SW Commercial Store which sells Industrial Coatings. They sell their products in 1 gal cans up to 55 gal barrels. The paint products I purchase for cabinets are the Sher-wood Kem Aqua plus white (M64W522) and Sher-wood Aqua plus Surfacer (primer) (E64W520). It is WB and KCMA certified. If purchased, you should follow SW requirements/ data sheets. SW can tint the product if you have a SW color name/number. When spraying, I try to have the surface which is receiving the paint, in a horizontal position. It is much easier to spray a horizontal surface than it is a vertical surface. Know before you pull the trigger the path your gun will follow. You may want to do a dry run. I have been eyeing the FUJI spray systems for a long time. They are not cheap. A three-stage system will probable do most of what I what to do but when I pull the trigger, I will purchase either a four or five stage system. I have been told it will only hurt once ($$$). Danl Cal, Fred W. Hargis Jr, Artie and 5 others 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunny Posted November 24, 2020 Report Share Posted November 24, 2020 Practice is the key. All the shop jigs and trays and holders. All practice, various finishes, paints stains etc etc. Whatever method you use to apply I rec you do it in small batches. Pace yourself, don't try to do all at once. Quality, not quantity. Cal, Fred W. Hargis Jr, Al B and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artie Posted November 24, 2020 Author Report Share Posted November 24, 2020 4 hours ago, Danl said: I would like to pass along what I have used to obtain good spraying results. No way am I saying, “this is how you have to do it”. I am a hobby woodworker. If you want a quality finish, you need to practice, practice, and practice. Use more than cardboard when you practice. Also practice on sample wood projects. If using a HVLP system, make sure your gun and air compressor are compatible. I believe most hobby air compressors do not put out a high enough CFM to atomize the paint adequately. I use a low price HVLP gun with a 33 gal. Craftsman air compressor. The compressor’s CFM ratings are 8.6 CFM @ 40 psi and 6.4 CFM @ 90 psi. I use both a filter and a regulator on the gun. I have the regulator closest to the gun. I dial down the line pressure to approx. 2X gun gun/spray pressure. My gun/spray psi is between 18 – 30 psi when the trigger is pulled. I purchased the book, SPRAY FINISHING made simple by Jeff Jewett. Jeff has a lot of good information. When spraying paint, I spray the primer and the paint with a 2.0 mm needle. Woodcraft sells the 2.0 mm needle kit which fits the HF gun and others. You will have to adjust the material flow valve to get desired results. With the gun I use, the flow rate is approx. 1-1/2 to 2 full turns. Every time I spray a finish, I take notes. I record the following: date, time, project, finish, temp, humidity, tank pressure, line pressure, gun pressure, and flow rate. I spray in an unfinished garage and it can get cold or hot with high humidity. I try to spray on days where the temp is between 65 – 85 deg F and the humidity is below 70%. Having too low humidity is not an issue for me. I spray almost exclusively SW products, but I do not purchase my material from the stores in the strip malls located everywhere. I purchase all my material from a SW Commercial Store which sells Industrial Coatings. They sell their products in 1 gal cans up to 55 gal barrels. The paint products I purchase for cabinets are the Sher-wood Kem Aqua plus white (M64W522) and Sher-wood Aqua plus Surfacer (primer) (E64W520). It is WB and KCMA certified. If purchased, you should follow SW requirements/ data sheets. SW can tint the product if you have a SW color name/number. When spraying, I try to have the surface which is receiving the paint, in a horizontal position. It is much easier to spray a horizontal surface than it is a vertical surface. Know before you pull the trigger the path your gun will follow. You may want to do a dry run. I have been eyeing the FUJI spray systems for a long time. They are not cheap. A three-stage system will probable do most of what I what to do but when I pull the trigger, I will purchase either a four or five stage system. I have been told it will only hurt once ($$$). Danl Ordered the book, thanks. Gunny, Al B, Cal and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Artie Posted November 24, 2020 Author Popular Post Report Share Posted November 24, 2020 13 minutes ago, Gunny said: Practice is the key. All the shop jigs and trays and holders. All practice, various finishes, paints stains etc etc. Whatever method you use to apply I rec you do it in small batches. Pace yourself, don't try to do all at once. Quality, not quantity. Yeah......I’m a pigheaded stubborn, impatient, senior citizen. Christmas is in 30 days from tomorrow, and I gotta get these done and delivered by then. At least the chocolate will be fine LOL. Pictures will follow (unless I have a meltdown, then all bets are off) Gunny, Cal, p_toad and 5 others 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Gunny Posted November 24, 2020 Popular Post Report Share Posted November 24, 2020 (edited) 33 minutes ago, Artie said: Ordered the book, thanks. Hopefully it's in the language you know best, pictures. Edited November 24, 2020 by Gunny Cal, Larry Buskirk, FlGatorwood and 5 others 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Larry Buskirk Posted November 24, 2020 Popular Post Report Share Posted November 24, 2020 27 minutes ago, Artie said: (unless I have a meltdown, then all bets are off) Sounds like a RG problem. Gunny, p_toad, FlGatorwood and 2 others 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Artie Posted November 24, 2020 Author Popular Post Report Share Posted November 24, 2020 Red Green? Cal, FlGatorwood, p_toad and 2 others 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Cal Posted November 25, 2020 Popular Post Report Share Posted November 25, 2020 (edited) Holy cow Artie! I just looked at the project you are doing, I did not know that you could look at the digital issue of the magazine for free... That is a lot of pieces! No way would I want to do that with a paint brush. If I were to do it, given your workspace and time constraints - I would probably invest in Danl's cardboard box and fix it to hang the pieces from a wire and use a few rattle cans. What type of wood are you using for this project? You might get a decent coverage of primer to only go one coat, cutting down on cost and time. With a lot of rattle cans it is now paint & primer in one, saving more time and cost. I am not sure what your plans are to do this paint job, but if you don't have the space and ability to do but some few at a time - you would spend a whole lot more time cleaning a spray gun than you would making the project to begin with. My vote - save your money for something else or for a spray gun on a different project! Edited November 25, 2020 by Cal Artie, Gunny, FlGatorwood and 3 others 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Buskirk Posted November 25, 2020 Report Share Posted November 25, 2020 15 hours ago, Artie said: Red Green? Nope! FlGatorwood, Cal, Gunny and 1 other 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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