Be frugal, not cheap

[kmealy]

42 minutes ago, clhyer said:

Keith, the red dye went on pretty good.  Was that a water based dye?  The GF expresso did not go on so well, was that water based or oil?

Now that you have had some time to reflect on it, what do you believe the major problem(s) was/were?

Cal

Dye was a dye concentrate in water, GF Espresso is water-based wiping stain, and EnduroVar is a water-based finish.

 

The black (cheap) paint did not strip all that well.  It sort of turned into gummy, snotty, rubber-bandy, elastic globs.   The white factory finish below that must have been some pretty tough, maybe catalyzed stuff.   Two rounds of stripper, one methylene chloride the other NMP that sat for 3 hrs, acetone rinses, and sanding did not get it out of the wood.    The panels are plywood so I could not get too aggressive with it.

 

Sometimes you eat the bear and sometimes the bear eats you.

 

[Cal]

3 hours ago, kmealy said:

Dye was a dye concentrate in water, GF Espresso is water-based wiping stain, and EnduroVar is a water-based finish.

 

The black (cheap) paint did not strip all that well.  It sort of turned into gummy, snotty, rubber-bandy, elastic globs.   The white factory finish below that must have been some pretty tough, maybe catalyzed stuff.   Two rounds of stripper, one methylene chloride the other NMP that sat for 3 hrs, acetone rinses, and sanding did not get it out of the wood.    The panels are plywood so I could not get too aggressive with it.

 

Sometimes you eat the bear and sometimes the bear eats you.

 

 

Thanks for the reply Keith.  Now I am more confused - and need to go back to finishing school...

When I started reading up and experimenting with finishing, the rule (if I may call it that) was that you alternated the base.  Water base on top of water base would cause the lower product to dissolve back into the top coat.  Likewise with oil on top of oil.  Do newer products not do this any more, or was that just so much theory?

Cal 

[kmealy]

2 hours ago, clhyer said:

 

Thanks for the reply Keith.  Now I am more confused - and need to go back to finishing school...

When I started reading up and experimenting with finishing, the rule (if I may call it that) was that you alternated the base.  Water base on top of water base would cause the lower product to dissolve back into the top coat.  Likewise with oil on top of oil.  Do newer products not do this any more, or was that just so much theory?

 

Finishes from 10,000 feet

My analysis has concluded that all finish products have various proportions (sometimes zero) of just a few things.   The proportion is what is important, like the difference between pretzels and beer.

 

Resin - shellac, lacquer, varnish (urethane, alkyd,phenolic), acrylic, oils

Thinner / solvent / carrier - petroleum distillates, alcohols, ketones, glycol ethers, etc.

Colorant - dye and/or pigment

Additives - flatteners, driers, catalyzers

 

For example, a varnish is a resin (oil and urethane & alkyd cooked together), a thinner (mineral spirits), and maybe some driers or flatteners.   Shellac is a resin (shellac) and a solvent (alcohol). An oil based stain is a lot of thinner, a bit of binder (e.g., oil or varnish resin), and some colorant (dye and/or pigment).   A glaze is a lot of colorant (pigment), a little binder(e.g., oil), and some thinner.  A dye-based stain is some colorant (dye) dissolved in a solvent (water, alcohol, etc.).  Boiled linseed oil is just a resin(oil) with some additives (driers).   Danish oil is some resins (oil, varnish), lots of thinner, and if you get a "walnut" one, some colorant (usually Gilsonite (a tar))

 

Mixing kingdoms

Well you are half-right.   A dye mixed in water might leech out a bit with a water based top coat or stain.  So what?  If it was a problem no one would use Transtints because they are soluble in most all finish solvents/carriers.

 

You are likely to have more problems mixing kingdoms between oil- and water-based finishes.   If you use an oil stain,   you need to make sure it's really truly dry before going over with a water-based finish. Like a week in good conditions.   Even then, I'd buy insurance and stick in a barrier coat of dewaxed shellac.

 

This article says

Choose a water-based stain for use under a water-based finish

Choose an oil stain to apply under any finish except water based, and in all cases where you don’t need any of the special characteristics offered by other stains.

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/article/understanding_stains

 

Same author, different article

Applying Finishes
Almost any finishing product – stain, filler, glaze, finish – can be applied successfully over any other finishing product, except wax (including residue wax from paint strippers), as long as that product is dry. This includes every finish over boiled linseed oil, and water-based finishes over oil stains. You might need to give the oil-based product several days or a week to dry in a warm room, but once dry every finish will bond fine without problems.

(I would add that waxed shellac is another issue, tuck that under "wax")

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/techniques/finish_compatibility

 

---------------------------------------------------------

 

Now, on the happy side, as I was sitting there contemplating how much plywood I'd need to run out and get and another can of finish, I thought, well, sometimes my touch-up lacquer toners work on w/b finishes, some times they don't.   What have I got to loose at this point?  Go get my can of "Black Cherry" toner (espresso-type finish).   Spray some on.  Drat, it blushes, but the shop is humid today.   Blush goes away as it dries.  It covers the minor irregularities that were bugging me just fine.   I think I pulled off a 9th inning save.   Will scuff-sand and let the lacquer dry for a day, and apply a final coat of EnduroVar.

 

Edited August 24, 2017 by kmealy

[Cal]

Thank you for the schooling and links Keith.  Glad you were able to save the project after putting all that time & effort into it!

Cal

[kmealy]

I guess I should be clearer.   The red dye may have bled into the espresso w/b stain.  The stain contains a binder, so it would no different than if I'd added the dye to the can of stain.  Or maybe even if it was a dye-based stain.

 

The dye can bleed somewhat into the first coat of finish if I hadn't put down a wiping stain following it.  In this particular case, the stain is very dark and would not cause any problem, in my opinion.

 

If I was using a light dye and putting on a (thick) first coat of finish, I might have different results if it bled through.   It might also make a difference if I was brushing on the finish and pulling up the color and streaking it, but I was spraying.

 

If there is any doubt,   Rule #3 When you are using a new product or technique always do trials / samples

[kmealy]

Got it back together today.   Still need to do the kick plate and shoe molding, but I'm just going to paint it black.  You can see in one of the photos, although in ambient light it looks very black, there is a red undertone that you can see more clearly when you flood with a flash.

 

[Cal]

Looks really good Keith,

Cal