Wiping Polyurethane

[Warped & Twisted]

I don't mind suggestion at all. Sometimes I don't add all the little details I should when describing things. When I very lightly sand with the 400 grit I do put it on a flat block. Now I'm not sure I completely understand what you're saying about buffing it out. Specifically when you do the buffing? Is this after the last coat had dried a few days or between coats after sanding?

dragon1 said:

Might I make a suggestion?

Instead of sanding by hand, use a block to just sand the surface and level it out, Then buff it out with the 3m in the flats and over the whole surface.

Less coats and quicker level out and shine instead of 9 coats.

[DRAGON1]

Try this out Richard

Coat a piece of wood ( say, 1in x 12in x 3ft) with poly.

Using your block and 220 grit paper, run it lightly over the wood, just 1 pass over the wood.

You'll see all the high points (sanded areas) and the low points (shiny areas).

I take these down till there is almost no shiny areas. Then I use the 3m to buff it all out and wipe with a tack rag to remove dust.

Wash Rinse, Repeat, LOL

I can usually get a full shine smooth coat by the 3rd coat.

When I use lacquer I do much the same thing except I'll go with 5 coats just to build it up.

And black Lacquer goes at 7 coats depending on how much black I put into the lacquer.

[Warped & Twisted]

Larry, I read you blog and it's a good one. I read lots of post I don't respond to and it means nothing one way or the other. But I have no intention of getting that involved in finishing the finish on polyurethane. We have been talking about methods of applying a wipe on poly and not straight vanish. While poly can be rubbed out it's not the best finish for rubbing out. You can't rub out poly to a high gloss like you can on a hard finish like lacquer. Do a Google search on "rubbing out a polyurethane finish'' and you see what I mean.

Anyway your blog will make a good addition the to archives of this forum and will be beneficial to some I'm sure.

In your original post you said "Now, if anyone wants to know how to "finish the finish" my way, just ask." To me that sound very much like you wanted us to beg you for your article. Or to put it a different way unless someone ask I'm not going to post it.

Anyway I don't think anyone wants you to go anywhere.

Larry Jenkins said:

I'm confused, but that's not hard..

In this thread, two folks asked about my comment regarding information about finishng the finish, One said "go ahead" and the other accused me of wanting someone to "beg." I don't do that. I responded to his post, but it's gone.

Trying to help, I took a lot of time and thought to write a Blog about my methods of applying wiping poly, plus how to finish it. Zero responses. Not even a challenge, which I would eagerly accept. That's how we improve.

I'm not trying to get atta boys, I really want to help others. Guess i'm done trying.

Larry

[Roy Boomershine]

Larry, I read your blog post. I'd thought about waxing over the top of the poly when I get done building it up. I used to have the kids at school wax on a couple of their projects that we wiped with the Seal-A-Cell. This bookcase is oak, and I didn't use a filler on it. I'm wondering if I use wax if I'll get white or cloudy spots where the grain is rougher. Thanks reminder on wax, I know it does smooth things out in the end.

Larry Jenkins said:

I'm confused, but that's not hard..

In this thread, two folks asked about my comment regarding information about finishng the finish, One said "go ahead" and the other accused me of wanting someone to "beg." I don't do that. I responded to his post, but it's gone.

Trying to help, I took a lot of time and thought to write a Blog about my methods of applying wiping poly, plus how to finish it. Zero responses. Not even a challenge, which I would eagerly accept. That's how we improve.

I'm not trying to get atta boys, I really want to help others. Guess i'm done trying.

Larry

[Roy Boomershine]

I've heard of it but never actually used it. At school I found a couple bottle of a pinkish-tan, thick liquid polishing compound, can't remember the name of it, but I always thought that might be similar to the rottenstone. It was some old stuff that looked like it had been around forever. I never used it on any wood projects, but I found that it worked great for finishing plastic on pens, it really brought the shine out. I grabbed it on my way out of the shop because I knew they were shutting it down and the stuff would be getting trashed away. Now the trick is to figure out where the stuff is stored away at. Yesterday I finally found my dowel center drilling jig, that had been a couple day project tracking it down.

dragon1 said:

(Bet Roy doesn't know about rottenstone!!! )

[Warped & Twisted]

OK dragon1 I'll give that a try. But I'm not sure I'd be comfortable with just 3 coats of wipe on finish on kitchen cabinets. The general consensus seems to be it takes 3 coats of wipe on finish to equal 1 coat of brushed on finish. The typical instructions on cans of varnish always say to apply 3 coats. This is where I coming up with 6-9 coats.

dragon1 said:

Try this out Richard

Coat a piece of wood ( say, 1in x 12in x 3ft) with poly.

Using your block and 220 grit paper, run it lightly over the wood, just 1 pass over the wood.

You'll see all the high points (sanded areas) and the low points (shiny areas).

I take these down till there is almost no shiny areas. Then I use the 3m to buff it all out and wipe with a tack rag to remove dust.

Wash Rinse, Repeat, LOL

I can usually get a full shine smooth coat by the 3rd coat.

When I use lacquer I do much the same thing except I'll go with 5 coats just to build it up.

And black Lacquer goes at 7 coats depending on how much black I put into the lacquer.

[DRAGON1]

Ok, now I see how you came up with the 6-9 coats.

Have you tried Waterlox? (geez, I'm starting to sound like a salesman for the stuff!!!)

I just finished a BIG slab Walnut table 10 ft long by 5 ft across (or thereabouts) with Waterlox.

Great color, easy to apply and the finish is absolutely surreal.

It's been 1 year and the table is in use constantly and there's not even a watermark from a glass on the finish.

I'm a fan of letting the wood grain show through and the waterlox is protecting it and letting the beauty of the wood show through.

[Roy Boomershine]

I got the bookcase finished and it looks great. I'd never done the wiping before and I think I'll be doing it again. I did the first four coats with a 50/50 mix, and the next four with about a 75/25 mix. I wasn't liking the looks of it until about coat 5 or 6, then all the sudden the finish started building up. After it had set a few days I hit it with some steel wool and wax. Now I'm working on a book nook project from one of the latest issues of Wood and wife wants it finished the same way, and then she wants another book nook for herself. I haven't made it into the shop for the last 3 days, but I think this afternoon I'll be hitting it again. There's a big craft show in Kalamazoo today that we're going to go to and then to the gym (which is definately not my favorite thing), then maybe I can go grind up some more wood.

[Warped & Twisted]

Glad it worked out for you Roy. Remember you can do this with any oil based varnish not just poly.

Roy Boomershine said:

I got the bookcase finished and it looks great. I'd never done the wiping before and I think I'll be doing it again. I did the first four coats with a 50/50 mix, and the next four with about a 75/25 mix. I wasn't liking the looks of it until about coat 5 or 6, then all the sudden the finish started building up. After it had set a few days I hit it with some steel wool and wax. Now I'm working on a book nook project from one of the latest issues of Wood and wife wants it finished the same way, and then she wants another book nook for herself. I haven't made it into the shop for the last 3 days, but I think this afternoon I'll be hitting it again. There's a big craft show in Kalamazoo today that we're going to go to and then to the gym (which is definately not my favorite thing), then maybe I can go grind up some more wood.

[greg fee]

Have been working on a large trestle table, at he finishing stage, went with the wipe on poly described below by jim cull, great method, did numerous coats with gloss poly, last coats have been using semi gloss poly and finding that a pattern is showing up when I start the sweep and when I end, when it dries you can see when I have put more poly on my application cloth and when it ends, what can I do to fix this on my next coat. Did a 50/50 on the mix

 

Richard McComas said:

Below is a method of whipping on finish that I have use a number of times and it does work well. These direction are written by Jim Kull a well known and respected finisher. The will give you a nice finish.

"
First, you can use any full strength oil based clear finish. Polyurethane varnish or non-poly varnish is fine.

If you are making your own wipe-on the mix is scientific - thin. I suggest 50/50 with mineral spirits because it is easier to type than any other ratio and easy to remember. Some finish formulators have jumped on the bandwagon and you can now get "wipe on" finish pre-mixed. If you use a pre-mixed, thinning is generally not neccessary. But making your own is cheaper and you know what's in it.

The number of coats in a given day is not important. Important is to apply a wet coat with an applicator and merely get it on. Think of a 16 year old kid working as a busboy at Denny's you have sent over to wipe off a table. Sort of swirl the the material on like you would if you were applying a paste wax. Don't attempt straight strokes. The applicator should be wet but not soaked. The applicator can be a paper towel, half a T-shirt sleeve or that one sock left after a load of washing. Then leave it alone. The surface should not be glossy or wet looking. If you have missed a spot, ignore it - you will get it on the next coat. If you try and fix a missed spot you will leave a mark in the finish.

Timing for a second coat involves the pinkie test. Touch the surface with your pinkie. If nothing comes off you are ready for another coat. If was tacky 5 minutes ago but not now, apply your next coat just as you applied the previous coat. Remember, you are wet wiping not flooding. After applying the second coat, let it fully dry for 48 hours. Using 320 paper and a sanding block ligthtly sand the surface flat. Now, begin applying more coats. Do not sand between coats unless you have allowed more than 24 hours to elapse since the prior coat. The number of coats is not critical - there is no critical or right number to apply. For those who need a rule, four more coats on non-critical surfaces or six more coats on surfaces that will get abraded seems to work.

After your last coat has dried at least over night you will have boogers in the surface. You should not have marks in the surface because you ignored application flaws. You may have dust, lint and, if you live in Texas, bug legs. Use a utility knife blade at this point. Hold it between your thumb and forefinger, near the vertical, and gently scrape the surface. Gentle is the important word - no harder than you would scrape your face. If you start scraping aggressively you will leave small cut marks in the surface. After you have scraped to the baby butt stage gently abrade the surface with 320 dry paper or a gray ScotchBrite. Clean off the surface. Now, leave the area for two hours and change your clothes. Apply your last coat with a bit more care than the previous coats and walk away.

An anal person is going to have a tough time with this process. Missed spots have to be ignored. Wet wipe, don't flood. Scraping to babies butt smooth means scraping no harder than scraping a babies butt. Ignoring any of these will leave marks that are tough to get out. Getting these marks out requires some agressive sanding to flatten out the surface and starting over.

Jim Kull

END QUOTE

Finally, It works better to use a gloss varnish for all coats except the last. The flatteners in semi-gloss and satin tend to rapidly fall out of suspension when the finish is highly thinned. If you want a non-gloss finish, use it only on the final coat or two and be sure to stir the material frequently or you will end up with cloudy streaks.

[John Morris]

Hi Greg, I helped you out little with the pics. When you want to post a pic, just click on the icon next to "LINK" button on the text bar. It will prompt you to browse for your pic on your desktop or submit it with a URL.

I am not the best finisher Greg, so I am going to defer this issue to the pros around here. They are all at work right now, hopefully later this afternoon we will get some good tips.

By the way, beautiful job on the table!!!

[greg fee]

tks on the table, just getting the hang of your site, will do the link thing next time, tks for the help, really looking forward to some input. I think I am putting too much down on the applicator rather than wetting down easy, however, it is a large surface so tough to cover like a small surface would be to. just did another coat of 50/50, but dabbed the applicator on some cardboard first to help absorbing some of the initial solution before I started wiping it on again. Wonder if there is any difference to semi and gloss makeup and if that has anything to do with the wiping situation. I took the japan drier out of this mix, was drying too fast I think.

The American Woodworker said:

Hi Greg, I helped you out little with the pics. When you want to post a pic, just click on the icon next to "LINK" button on the text bar. It will prompt you to browse for your pic on your desktop or submit it with a URL.

I am not the best finisher Greg, so I am going to defer this issue to the pros around here. They are all at work right now, hopefully later this afternoon we will get some good tips.

By the way, beautiful job on the table!!!

[Warped & Twisted]

Hi Greg. I'm by no means a finishing expert. I usually just pass on information I get form others. First lets try to figure out what caused the problem. How many coats have you applied after you noticed the problem? My best guess is if your gloss coats went on well and you're application methods are the same with the semi-gloss my first guess is you're not keeping the flatting agents that are use in the semi-gloss well mixed.  Since poly doesn't melt into it's self like lacquer and shellac product I suspect you'll have to sand back to an undamaged layer.

[John Moody]

Greg in the picture below, the section on the right is that the first coat of semi-gloss and is that the gloss on the left?

 

It will be important to keep the semi gloss stirred to keep well mixed. You will see some difference as you apply the coats, but they should level out as you cover the entire table. That is why I was asking if this was a shot after a complete covering of the table with the semi of just after a section.

 

 

 

[greg fee]

I put 4 coats of gloss on with sanding in between the 3 and 4, then applied semi gloss, it started to appear then, so I thought it was early for any alarm so applied another, it continued and that is what you see here, this image is a completed second coat of semi. I sanded again with 320, wiped down, and just applied another semi, still not the best looking results I was expecting.... Just went out to shop to check the mix of the semi, it was not mixed all that well, lots of sediment came up from bottom, so will definitely keep that in mind down the road, could be the problem. Bigger one now is what to do to get the swirling wipes to match more, what is best approach to get things back on track?

John Moody said:

Greg in the picture below, the section on the right is that the first coat of semi-gloss and is that the gloss on the left?

 

It will be important to keep the semi gloss stirred to keep well mixed. You will see some difference as you apply the coats, but they should level out as you cover the entire table. That is why I was asking if this was a shot after a complete covering of the table with the semi of just after a section.

 

 

 

[DRAGON1]

I think I see your problem.

 

NEVER WIPE ACROSS GRAIN.

 

OR IN A SWIRL PATTERN.

 

This doesn't allow the finish to be evenly applied.

 

Long straight wipes WITH the grain and don't wipe again.

 

by the way, I don't recommend using the gloss with the semi as they are 2 DIFFERENT finishes and I've never had much luck using both (always a problem).

 

And another interesting note, It doesn't have to have a thick coat to be protected, just the surface needs to be sealed.

[Warped & Twisted]

I've have away used a windshield wiper motion when I've applied a wiping poly and it flows out nicely. That's one of the main advantages of thinning it so much. You can pretty  much slop it on and flows right out.  Anyway that's my experience.

I've also done satin over gloss and haven't  had problems as long as I constantly keep the satin poly stirred up good. If you don't it can streak on you. If you using the same brand of product the only different between the gloss and satin is the flatten agent which is a very fine power like "stuff" that act to break up the light transmission.

Rich

dragon1 said:

I think I see your problem.

 

NEVER WIPE ACROSS GRAIN.

 

OR IN A SWIRL PATTERN.

 

This doesn't allow the finish to be evenly applied.

 

Long straight wipes WITH the grain and don't wipe again.

 

by the way, I don't recommend using the gloss with the semi as they are 2 DIFFERENT finishes and I've never had much luck using both (always a problem).

 

And another interesting note, It doesn't have to have a thick coat to be protected, just the surface needs to be sealed.

[greg fee]

I was following jim kull's method of swirling action and don't go back, he mentioned nothing about with the grain. I think once the wood is sealed with early coats, I wouldn't think grain would be a factor

[greg fee]

I agree with you richard on this, the only screw up is my lack of really mixing the semi well. On my earlier gloss coats it looked great, so the technique works with the 'swirling Denny's clean the table method' I am sanding again to take some of the heavier overcoats to bring them in line with the thinner ones which left ridges (as seen in the photo), will mix the semi again really well and get back at swirling another coat on, will keep you guys informed on the results later today, much appreciate all of your input, it sure helps.

greg

[John Morris]

Excellent Greg! Please do keep us informed of your success. With pics if you can!

greg fee said:

I agree with you richard on this, the only screw up is my lack of really mixing the semi well. On my earlier gloss coats it looked great, so the technique works with the 'swirling Denny's clean the table method' I am sanding again to take some of the heavier overcoats to bring them in line with the thinner ones which left ridges (as seen in the photo), will mix the semi again really well and get back at swirling another coat on, will keep you guys informed on the results later today, much appreciate all of your input, it sure helps.
greg