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Guest Lance The Dude Granum

On the home front The Collapse of the home market has caused cabinet shops to close

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Guest Lance The Dude Granum

On the home front  The Collapse of the home market has caused cabinet shops to close



I spent the day at the local saw shop. I have never let them touch my saw blades or any of my tools they use a big grinder and hack your blades to death.however they were the biggest shop in Fresno they used to have 5 lines in the shop any tool a guy could want from the hot new dealers.. but today it is a different story today they are filled with huge professional shop tools, many of the items are for 3 phase electricity. Many are just huge like a 24 inch band saw I could not find a maker on it but it was made in America and had a 7 hp motor on it. the guy at the saw shop laughed and said it is underpowered. I could buy that saw for a grand now if only i can get 3 phase electricity in my home. 

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In some places it can cost more to run a phase inverter than to actually have 3 phase put in.  try to stick to a 220v system and see about the same saw with a 9hp motor or better.


 


along with the cabinetmakers, the contractors, laborers, carpenters, plumbers,


 electricians, restorers, antique dealers, deck builders, masons, and loads of others that are suffering.

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Lance, two weeks ago I went ot an auction of a defunct cabinet shop.  On that day there were three cabinet shop auctions in one day within 40 miles of me.  So sad.




Ron Dudelston
Site Host


Above and Beyond WoodWorks

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Agreed...


 


Effectively working around the 3 phase requirement in a residential setting is a very easy task these days.  If one was so inclined there are perfectly designed diy rotary phase converter plans available online for free.  The easier route is to buy an appropriately size VFD and run it off your single phase system.  Most VFDs can run on single phase power and only need to be derated for proper sizing.


 


To sum up...  These days, machines with a 3phase requirement are your best bet at getting a bargin price on industrial machinery for your home shop. Grin.gif

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Guest Lance The Dude Granum

this is a great topic I didnt think you guys would turn to the it is doable idea i am very surpriced so your saying i could buy and use these huge machines well then i am in the market for a 14 jointer I hope to run it on hose hold current I will need help and guidence to pull this off and i will be keeping my current jointer as well so I am off to the store to start my search ill go in the morning

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Lance



you have to learn to walk befor you can run my pops used to say.



3 Phase motors are less $ to run, less $ to buy.  

Three phase electiricty comes in either 3 wire or 4 wire power configurations 3 hot wires and no nuetral or 3 hot wires and a nuetral respectively. Each hot leg is 120 degrees out of phase with each other.

Basically when looking at motors here are the advantages of 3 phase motors:
They are more efficient than single phase motors
They last longer and run smoother.

3 phase motors are smaller per unit of horsepower or Kilowatt than a single phase motor.

The disadvantage of 3 phase motors is that they cant be used at most residential places because typical homes use single phase electricity. A phase converter can be used to convert single phase to 3 phase. There are static as well as rotary converters, and variable frequency drives(VFD). All these converters do a farily good job of converting single phase to 3 phase.

The greatest part about getting three phase in the shop is cheep industral tools can be had for next to nothing. I just finished a system for my shop out of used industrial equipment and now have 208/240/and 600volt three phase off my residential single phase power



VFDs are so easy to wire a monkey could do it. Here is a 1.5 hp 3phase Wadkin lathe  running off a VFD .







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Guest Lance The Dude Granum

That is really cool but do i need that kind of control or can it just be made to plug in and run like if it were plunged into a regular three phase plugin and the machine controls were set to run? Do I have to buy a converter for every machine or can I set up a few machines at a time.And I am a hand tool Junkie but I do want a wide jointer .

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Lance



Nothing wrong with hand tools. I like my hand tools too. But the big machines take the main work so my efforts are saved for the finale finish with hand tools. So for me its not a hand tool VS machine. 



A great place to start is with the VFD.  If you find a machine that is 240 volts 3 phase and no more  than 3 HP than you will find that the VFD is the cheepest way to go. the cost to covert this type of machine is $185.  I have picked up 14" RAS for $143 because it was 3 phase and just added a VFD. so for less than $350 i have a $7000 saw



you wire the machine to the VFD(3 wires) and the VFD to a plug(3 wires) Done. You can go further and wire in control stations, speed controls reverse switch ,E stops and on and on and on. but you do not have to. The VFD give you machine contol that if you wish the switchs in the machine to control you  can be used them  just like it was pulged in to a 3 phase plug.



here is what you need for a VFD



 jack


English machines


 








Lance The Dude Granum said:


That is really cool but do i need that kind of control or can it just be made to plug in and run like if it were plunged into a regular three phase plugin and the machine controls were set to run? Do I have to buy a converter for every machine or can I set up a few machines at a time.And I am a hand tool Junkie but I do want a wide jointer .




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Hi Lance


This question is for the three phase experts, and trust it is not out of place on this discussion. I have just installed a new


4 hp motor on my centauro 28inch band saw, and given that the original "star delta" switch burnt the previous motor, I have wired the new one as DOL ( direct on line) , but it has so much torque that it slips and burns rubber at the start.


My question ,; Is there a way of wiring some kind of soft start with a three phase motor ?


we are on 240 volts supply down under


Cheers Sam Calabro


 


Cheers Sam Calabro
 
tool613 said:


Lance



Nothing wrong with hand tools. I like my hand tools too. But the big machines take the main work so my efforts are saved for the finale finish with hand tools. So for me its not a hand tool VS machine. 



A great place to start is with the VFD.  If you find a machine that is 240 volts 3 phase and no more  than 3 HP than you will find that the VFD is the cheepest way to go. the cost to covert this type of machine is $185.  I have picked up 14" RAS for $143 because it was 3 phase and just added a VFD. so for less than $350 i have a $7000 saw



you wire the machine to the VFD(3 wires) and the VFD to a plug(3 wires) Done. You can go further and wire in control stations, speed controls reverse switch ,E stops and on and on and on. but you do not have to. The VFD give you machine contol that if you wish the switchs in the machine to control you  can be used them  just like it was pulged in to a 3 phase plug.



here is what you need for a VFD



 jack


English machines


 








Lance The Dude Granum said:




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Hi Sam,


 


Yes, there are devices known as "soft starters" which will do exactly what you'd like.  They're used in place of a standard starter (contactor) and will have an adjustable accel time, and some come with overload protection as well.  They are wired in the exact same manner as the standard starter, so it's an easy swap.  Sizing is critical though, so it would be best to take all the motor's name plate information to the retailer and get it sized appropriately.


 


The downside is, they aren't cheap.  You may as well just go the route of the lower end VFDs and gain more control over your bandsaw's abilities. 


 


I really don't know what is available in your neck of the planet as far as products, so googling "soft starter" would be your best bet on finding something local to you.  There is of course always ebay, but I wouldn't touch a used unit, (they have a life span) so be careful on what you buy.


 


All the best,


 


Jarrett

sam calabro said:


My question ,; Is there a way of wiring some kind of soft start with a three phase motor ?


we are on 240 volts supply down under


Cheers Sam Calabro




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Thanks for the advice jarret, and also Ken, you are right about the price of soft starters, so I will chase down the


VFD lead.


 


Ciao Sam
 
J. Vibert said:


Hi Sam,


 


Yes, there are devices known as "soft starters" which will do exactly what you'd like.  They're used in place of a standard starter (contactor) and will have an adjustable accel time, and some come with overload protection as well.  They are wired in the exact same manner as the standard starter, so it's an easy swap.  Sizing is critical though, so it would be best to take all the motor's name plate information to the retailer and get it sized appropriately.


 


The downside is, they aren't cheap.  You may as well just go the route of the lower end VFDs and gain more control over your bandsaw's abilities. 


 


I really don't know what is available in your neck of the planet as far as products, so googling "soft starter" would be your best bet on finding something local to you.  There is of course always ebay, but I wouldn't touch a used unit, (they have a life span) so be careful on what you buy.


 


All the best,


 


Jarrett

sam calabro said:




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Guest Lance The Dude Granum

When I started this thread it was to point out the huge supply of big tools for sale because of the collapse, but the tide turned very positiver with the help of some bright guys who know how to modify tools to work on household current.This has me on the tool front there is an auction up by Frisco next week. Several cabinet shops are being foreclosed upon and they are selling off everything. i have a friend who is bonded to buy and he said he would take me to the auction and would let me bid on his account so i may get my wider than 12 inch jointer sooner that i had hoped

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Yes you can get outlets and plugs for the 3 phase.  Wired much the same as regular outlets but with a few differences (wire size, grounds, all have to be code) and if you've never done it before I highly recommend a qualified commercial Electrician.

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That's awesome Lance!! I hope you get it too. A nice early Christmas present is a pleasant eventGrin.gif

Lance The Dude Granum said:


When I started this thread it was to point out the huge supply of big tools for sale because of the collapse, but the tide turned very positiver with the help of some bright guys who know how to modify tools to work on household current.This has me on the tool front there is an auction up by Frisco next week. Several cabinet shops are being foreclosed upon and they are selling off everything. i have a friend who is bonded to buy and he said he would take me to the auction and would let me bid on his account so i may get my wider than 12 inch jointer sooner that i had hoped






John Morris
The Patriot Woodworker
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