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Delta 785 Band Saw


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I recently found a pretty nice (at least I thought it was) Delta 785 10" Bandsaw.  Got it home and took a closer look.  Missing the upper blade guard assemble which I found over on OWWM.  Removed the upper wheel due to awful sounds from bearings (I thought it was bearings).  Bearings are bicycle type so I am rebuilding them, but that's not the problem.  The wheel seems broken???  By that I mean the outer tin shell rotates on the bearing housing.  I don't think its supposed to do that.  You can see the problem in the photo.  The bearing housing is not connected to the wheel.  Soo, any ideas on how to repair that problem?

 

2016-10-23 15.57.38.jpg

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John, can you remove the inner race from the "tin" shield/ carrier? If so, pictures of it removed as well as pictures of the opposite side would be beneficial.

 

I've used a center punch to peen ID of race carrier, thus disrupting or displacing metal to reduce diameter, then used Loctite 660 Bearing & Race Adhesive to fully secure; assuming of course bore ID is not so enlarged and condition of your bearing race.

 

This Link  might help describe that process a little better. 

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A jiffy ring or a speedy sleeve may be the answer,,,

http://usatolerancerings.com/index.php?page=more-information

http://www.skf.com/us/products/vehicle-aftermarket/heavy-duty/specialty-parts-and-programs/speedi-sleeve-shaft-repair-kits/index.html

 

get a hold of Precision Bearing.... they use to have all the answers to questions you never asked...

Edited by Stick486
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John, Thanks for the video and extra pics...helped a little...that race has to come out some fashion from one direction or another...I suspect the wheel has formed a ridge or burr from spinning on the race...

Interesting enough in the archive forums here, John Buskirk dealt with a similar issue during a 785 Restore he documented...

 

Take a look  Here  and see if this helps any...keep asking questions & posting where you're at...more eyes & heads on this might help.

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So you are both thinking the race is a press fit into the wheel?  The factory manual doesn't indicate that, but hey, what's new.  Its obvious that its useless as is, so maybe pulling it apart will answer some questions.  Think I'll poke around for parts, maybe over on owwm.  I'm thinking the race will not be available, so may have to have one made, or do like Larry/John Buskirk did and use a different wheel all together.  This 785 seems to be pretty rare so finding parts may be a real problem.

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4 hours ago, John Wright said:

So you are both thinking the race is a press fit into the wheel?  The factory manual doesn't indicate that, but hey, what's new.  Its obvious that its useless as is, so maybe pulling it apart will answer some questions.  Think I'll poke around for parts, maybe over on owwm.  I'm thinking the race will not be available, so may have to have one made, or do like Larry/John Buskirk did and use a different wheel all together.  This 785 seems to be pretty rare so finding parts may be a real problem.

Sorry John...got who I was referring to mixed up...Larry is obviously correct...no doubt you have this already, but taking a look, I'm not sure the bearing the stamped wheel was intended to replaceable...shaft bearings were and as you describe appear to be cage bearings  with races, but I don't find a separate bearing for the wheel. I wonder if originally, it was placed in a formed bore, then the outer portion was crimped over retaining the bearing??? Just guessing but common place on farm equipment from that era.

 

If the shaft is supported by bearings, the wheel would not need to be independent of the shaft with bearings. Could it be the part that is rotating is was a steel hub pressed into the wheel? Grasping here, but looking at the parts breakdown I don't see a bearing in the wheel or reference to such.

 

Vintage Machinery Delta 785 Bandsaw PDF

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3 hours ago, John Wright said:

What are you thinking.  Replace the race with a bearing, or would Precision carry races too?

oversized OD on the race....

a take up sleeve to take a race to a larger OD...

it's been a lot of years since I've been into Precision but no mater what I brought to them they had a solution.. sometimes even several solutions for the same problem...

your issue is not unique nor should it be difficult...

 

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I took the lower wheel off.  Its pretty flimsey construction.  The wheel is in two pieces.  See photo below.  The tire wasn't glued on so it just came off revealing the two part wheel.  My thought is the outer tin shells were somehow pressed on the race.  Through the years the bearing wore out and froze on the shaft.  The wheel then kept turning breaking the tin/race seal.  My thoughts now are to try and braze them together or maybe rivit the shells to the race somehow.  I have a friend who is a machinist, I will take this over tomorrow to get his thoughts on how to fix it.

 

2016-11-04 09.01.25.jpg

 

Here's the lower wheel race.  By the way, the lower shaft is not original.  The original shaft was one diameter all the way through.  Mine has been turned down.  The original used bicycle bearings, mine has regular ball bearings, so my thought is that there has been a mod much like Larry did on his 785 a few years ago.

 

Here's the shaft.

 

2016-11-04 14.27.06.jpg

 

 

Here's the lower wheel.  This is the side toward the body of the saw.  So we shall see what my friend says tomorrow.

 

2016-11-04 14.27.21.jpg

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That makes more sense now John seeing the bottom wheel. I think you've hit it on the head so to speak what happened to the top. best I could tell the original was not a sealed bearing of any type since a "grease/dust" seal was used. Pulley's such as these were (are) used quite commonly on farm & L&G equipment...each half pressed onto a bearing outer race, then the halves riveted or spot welded together. Of course they use sealed,ball bearings today.

 

Your friend might be able to get the remains out w/o further damage to the wheel ID and possible match up a ball bearing. I'm still confused why this wheel needs a bearing versus a hub if the top shaft rotates. I'm probably missing something; just trying to get it in my head.  I see the drive lug/pin in the bottom shaft to drive that wheel. Is the top shaft fixed with the wheel rotating on the shaft? From the parts schematic, it appears the top wheel spins with the shaft??

 

I appreciate your interaction on this...find it interesting & challenging trying to get this oldie up & running again.

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Ahh, now I understand the confusion.  The shaft does not rotate.  The wheel rotates on the shaft which is attached to the tension blade tension device.  So the race contains the bearings.  The race is stationary to the wheel and the bearings rotate on the shaft.  Like the front wheel of a bicycle.

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7 minutes ago, John Wright said:

Ahh, now I understand the confusion.  The shaft does not rotate.  The wheel rotates on the shaft which is attached to the tension blade tension device.  So the race contains the bearings.  The race is stationary to the wheel and the bearings rotate on the shaft.  Like the front wheel of a bicycle.

Got it......makes complete sense and must be an older model / type from the parts list I found...

 

Image result for light bulb coming on

One option might be getting something like this and either welding flanges in place with the bearing in place or possibly drilling and bolting to existing wheel center...would add some weight and would need to try and balance (which wouldn't be that difficult for no faster than this turns)...biggest trick would be getting concentric to wheel OD with little run-out...should be able to match bearing ID to shaft OD...would not need the extended race type with shaft lock collar...just thinking out load here...

 

Kit12576-2.jpg?1475578416

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  • 2 weeks later...

That would be an option.  Have had some suggestions from OWWM as well.  One was to epoxy the race in position.  The thoughts over there are that the race is too hard to drill and rivet.  However, I just stripped all the paint off the lower wheel and found rivets in the outer rim.  So makes me wonder what the inside of the wheel must look like.  If it is rivited on the outer rim, is it possible that the interior piece is one solid piece and somehow it has sheared off hence the rotation?  Without destroying the wheel no way to know.  So I am on several tracks right now.  Try the rivet approach and see if the metal is soft enough for this approach.  Second the epoxy using jb weld or something similar like loctite.  The problem with both approaches as you said would be to get everything centered to the outer rim to prevent runout or wobble.  We are thinking a circular wedge kind of thing that we can slide between the outer shell and the inner race to keep things centered.

Of course the obvious solution is to find a new wheel.  I will continue to search of that as time goes on.  I found the saw, will probably find the wheel.

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On 11/14/2016 at 10:57 AM, John Wright said:

That would be an option.  Have had some suggestions from OWWM as well.  One was to epoxy the race in position.  The thoughts over there are that the race is too hard to drill and rivet.  However, I just stripped all the paint off the lower wheel and found rivets in the outer rim.  So makes me wonder what the inside of the wheel must look like.  If it is rivited on the outer rim, is it possible that the interior piece is one solid piece and somehow it has sheared off hence the rotation?  Without destroying the wheel no way to know.  So I am on several tracks right now.  Try the rivet approach and see if the metal is soft enough for this approach.  Second the epoxy using jb weld or something similar like loctite.  The problem with both approaches as you said would be to get everything centered to the outer rim to prevent runout or wobble.  We are thinking a circular wedge kind of thing that we can slide between the outer shell and the inner race to keep things centered.

Of course the obvious solution is to find a new wheel.  I will continue to search of that as time goes on.  I found the saw, will probably find the wheel.

John, Would agree about the race hardness...

With the pictures it's very difficult to tell...either the race was a light press fit in the bore, then edge flange rolled to prevent the wheel from "walking" off the races or possibly there was a formed flat flange with the bearings race(s) being installed back-to-back against the flat flange...once worn to the point where the race began to spin inside the bore, metal is disrupted enough to prevent easy removal of the races. I don't think a double race would have been one piece especially back then...cost, machining etc...I never seen anything like that..

 

Asking a lot, but would you mind taking pictures of the upper shaft and then pictures of the bearing, wheel, nut washers being installed...both outside and inside? Might help me visualize a little better...This was made in 1935-36...can't be that complicated can it? :P:rolleyes:

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Grandpadave,

 

Ok, took some photos today.  Here they are.

This is the axle assembly on top and the bicycle bearings below.  Notice the "swedge" type shoulder on the axel and the swedge type fitting that slides on the axel.

 

2016-11-16 16.04.13.jpg

 

Here is the outer bearing on the axel assemble.  Note the "cup" arrangement the bearing sits in.  The swedge then presses against the bearings.  There is a caution in the owner manual to use caution not to over tighten the nut that puts tension on the wheel/bearing assemble.  It should only be tightened enough to prevent side to side slip.  I think what happened is it was over tightened and the wheel was torqued off the race as a result.

2016-11-16 16.09.09.jpg

 

Here's the swedge assemble inserted into the bearing.  Note the dust cover on top of the bearing.  This fits on the wheel and over the bearing.

 

2016-11-16 16.09.38.jpg

 

Hope this helps you vision how things go together.

Edited by John Wright
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