John Wright Posted November 3, 2016 Report Share Posted November 3, 2016 I recently found a pretty nice (at least I thought it was) Delta 785 10" Bandsaw. Got it home and took a closer look. Missing the upper blade guard assemble which I found over on OWWM. Removed the upper wheel due to awful sounds from bearings (I thought it was bearings). Bearings are bicycle type so I am rebuilding them, but that's not the problem. The wheel seems broken??? By that I mean the outer tin shell rotates on the bearing housing. I don't think its supposed to do that. You can see the problem in the photo. The bearing housing is not connected to the wheel. Soo, any ideas on how to repair that problem? Miataguy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal Posted November 4, 2016 Report Share Posted November 4, 2016 What does the flip side of the wheel look like? Is there a bushing or race missing? Can't imagine it worked very well like that!!! Cal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stick486 Posted November 4, 2016 Report Share Posted November 4, 2016 oversized race pressed in... Miataguy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpadave52 Posted November 4, 2016 Report Share Posted November 4, 2016 John, can you remove the inner race from the "tin" shield/ carrier? If so, pictures of it removed as well as pictures of the opposite side would be beneficial. I've used a center punch to peen ID of race carrier, thus disrupting or displacing metal to reduce diameter, then used Loctite 660 Bearing & Race Adhesive to fully secure; assuming of course bore ID is not so enlarged and condition of your bearing race. This Link might help describe that process a little better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stick486 Posted November 4, 2016 Report Share Posted November 4, 2016 (edited) A jiffy ring or a speedy sleeve may be the answer,,, http://usatolerancerings.com/index.php?page=more-information http://www.skf.com/us/products/vehicle-aftermarket/heavy-duty/specialty-parts-and-programs/speedi-sleeve-shaft-repair-kits/index.html get a hold of Precision Bearing.... they use to have all the answers to questions you never asked... Edited November 4, 2016 by Stick486 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted November 4, 2016 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2016 (edited) Ok, I am attaching photos of the reverse side of the wheel. The inner race will not come out. I have included a video of the inner race rotating inside the outer tin wheel if that helps at all. 2016-11-04 08.53.20.mov Edited November 4, 2016 by John Wright Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stick486 Posted November 4, 2016 Report Share Posted November 4, 2016 find your replacement/repair pieces... slit the race at 120° interval and pull the old one out in pieces.. Dremel and a cut off wheel is your weapon of choice.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpadave52 Posted November 4, 2016 Report Share Posted November 4, 2016 John, Thanks for the video and extra pics...helped a little...that race has to come out some fashion from one direction or another...I suspect the wheel has formed a ridge or burr from spinning on the race... Interesting enough in the archive forums here, John Buskirk dealt with a similar issue during a 785 Restore he documented... Take a look Here and see if this helps any...keep asking questions & posting where you're at...more eyes & heads on this might help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted November 4, 2016 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2016 So you are both thinking the race is a press fit into the wheel? The factory manual doesn't indicate that, but hey, what's new. Its obvious that its useless as is, so maybe pulling it apart will answer some questions. Think I'll poke around for parts, maybe over on owwm. I'm thinking the race will not be available, so may have to have one made, or do like Larry/John Buskirk did and use a different wheel all together. This 785 seems to be pretty rare so finding parts may be a real problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stick486 Posted November 4, 2016 Report Share Posted November 4, 2016 (edited) yup... press fit... did you get a hold of Precision Bearing.... nothing to loose... Edited November 4, 2016 by Stick486 Miataguy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted November 4, 2016 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2016 1 hour ago, Stick486 said: yup... press fit... did you get a hold of Precision Bearing.... nothing to loose... What are you thinking. Replace the race with a bearing, or would Precision carry races too? Miataguy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpadave52 Posted November 4, 2016 Report Share Posted November 4, 2016 4 hours ago, John Wright said: So you are both thinking the race is a press fit into the wheel? The factory manual doesn't indicate that, but hey, what's new. Its obvious that its useless as is, so maybe pulling it apart will answer some questions. Think I'll poke around for parts, maybe over on owwm. I'm thinking the race will not be available, so may have to have one made, or do like Larry/John Buskirk did and use a different wheel all together. This 785 seems to be pretty rare so finding parts may be a real problem. Sorry John...got who I was referring to mixed up...Larry is obviously correct...no doubt you have this already, but taking a look, I'm not sure the bearing the stamped wheel was intended to replaceable...shaft bearings were and as you describe appear to be cage bearings with races, but I don't find a separate bearing for the wheel. I wonder if originally, it was placed in a formed bore, then the outer portion was crimped over retaining the bearing??? Just guessing but common place on farm equipment from that era. If the shaft is supported by bearings, the wheel would not need to be independent of the shaft with bearings. Could it be the part that is rotating is was a steel hub pressed into the wheel? Grasping here, but looking at the parts breakdown I don't see a bearing in the wheel or reference to such. Vintage Machinery Delta 785 Bandsaw PDF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stick486 Posted November 5, 2016 Report Share Posted November 5, 2016 3 hours ago, John Wright said: What are you thinking. Replace the race with a bearing, or would Precision carry races too? oversized OD on the race.... a take up sleeve to take a race to a larger OD... it's been a lot of years since I've been into Precision but no mater what I brought to them they had a solution.. sometimes even several solutions for the same problem... your issue is not unique nor should it be difficult... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted November 5, 2016 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2016 I took the lower wheel off. Its pretty flimsey construction. The wheel is in two pieces. See photo below. The tire wasn't glued on so it just came off revealing the two part wheel. My thought is the outer tin shells were somehow pressed on the race. Through the years the bearing wore out and froze on the shaft. The wheel then kept turning breaking the tin/race seal. My thoughts now are to try and braze them together or maybe rivit the shells to the race somehow. I have a friend who is a machinist, I will take this over tomorrow to get his thoughts on how to fix it. Here's the lower wheel race. By the way, the lower shaft is not original. The original shaft was one diameter all the way through. Mine has been turned down. The original used bicycle bearings, mine has regular ball bearings, so my thought is that there has been a mod much like Larry did on his 785 a few years ago. Here's the shaft. Here's the lower wheel. This is the side toward the body of the saw. So we shall see what my friend says tomorrow. Grandpadave52 and Cal 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpadave52 Posted November 5, 2016 Report Share Posted November 5, 2016 That makes more sense now John seeing the bottom wheel. I think you've hit it on the head so to speak what happened to the top. best I could tell the original was not a sealed bearing of any type since a "grease/dust" seal was used. Pulley's such as these were (are) used quite commonly on farm & L&G equipment...each half pressed onto a bearing outer race, then the halves riveted or spot welded together. Of course they use sealed,ball bearings today. Your friend might be able to get the remains out w/o further damage to the wheel ID and possible match up a ball bearing. I'm still confused why this wheel needs a bearing versus a hub if the top shaft rotates. I'm probably missing something; just trying to get it in my head. I see the drive lug/pin in the bottom shaft to drive that wheel. Is the top shaft fixed with the wheel rotating on the shaft? From the parts schematic, it appears the top wheel spins with the shaft?? I appreciate your interaction on this...find it interesting & challenging trying to get this oldie up & running again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted November 5, 2016 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2016 Ahh, now I understand the confusion. The shaft does not rotate. The wheel rotates on the shaft which is attached to the tension blade tension device. So the race contains the bearings. The race is stationary to the wheel and the bearings rotate on the shaft. Like the front wheel of a bicycle. Miataguy, Stick486 and Grandpadave52 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpadave52 Posted November 5, 2016 Report Share Posted November 5, 2016 7 minutes ago, John Wright said: Ahh, now I understand the confusion. The shaft does not rotate. The wheel rotates on the shaft which is attached to the tension blade tension device. So the race contains the bearings. The race is stationary to the wheel and the bearings rotate on the shaft. Like the front wheel of a bicycle. Got it......makes complete sense and must be an older model / type from the parts list I found... One option might be getting something like this and either welding flanges in place with the bearing in place or possibly drilling and bolting to existing wheel center...would add some weight and would need to try and balance (which wouldn't be that difficult for no faster than this turns)...biggest trick would be getting concentric to wheel OD with little run-out...should be able to match bearing ID to shaft OD...would not need the extended race type with shaft lock collar...just thinking out load here... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted November 14, 2016 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2016 That would be an option. Have had some suggestions from OWWM as well. One was to epoxy the race in position. The thoughts over there are that the race is too hard to drill and rivet. However, I just stripped all the paint off the lower wheel and found rivets in the outer rim. So makes me wonder what the inside of the wheel must look like. If it is rivited on the outer rim, is it possible that the interior piece is one solid piece and somehow it has sheared off hence the rotation? Without destroying the wheel no way to know. So I am on several tracks right now. Try the rivet approach and see if the metal is soft enough for this approach. Second the epoxy using jb weld or something similar like loctite. The problem with both approaches as you said would be to get everything centered to the outer rim to prevent runout or wobble. We are thinking a circular wedge kind of thing that we can slide between the outer shell and the inner race to keep things centered. Of course the obvious solution is to find a new wheel. I will continue to search of that as time goes on. I found the saw, will probably find the wheel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpadave52 Posted November 16, 2016 Report Share Posted November 16, 2016 On 11/14/2016 at 10:57 AM, John Wright said: That would be an option. Have had some suggestions from OWWM as well. One was to epoxy the race in position. The thoughts over there are that the race is too hard to drill and rivet. However, I just stripped all the paint off the lower wheel and found rivets in the outer rim. So makes me wonder what the inside of the wheel must look like. If it is rivited on the outer rim, is it possible that the interior piece is one solid piece and somehow it has sheared off hence the rotation? Without destroying the wheel no way to know. So I am on several tracks right now. Try the rivet approach and see if the metal is soft enough for this approach. Second the epoxy using jb weld or something similar like loctite. The problem with both approaches as you said would be to get everything centered to the outer rim to prevent runout or wobble. We are thinking a circular wedge kind of thing that we can slide between the outer shell and the inner race to keep things centered. Of course the obvious solution is to find a new wheel. I will continue to search of that as time goes on. I found the saw, will probably find the wheel. John, Would agree about the race hardness... With the pictures it's very difficult to tell...either the race was a light press fit in the bore, then edge flange rolled to prevent the wheel from "walking" off the races or possibly there was a formed flat flange with the bearings race(s) being installed back-to-back against the flat flange...once worn to the point where the race began to spin inside the bore, metal is disrupted enough to prevent easy removal of the races. I don't think a double race would have been one piece especially back then...cost, machining etc...I never seen anything like that.. Asking a lot, but would you mind taking pictures of the upper shaft and then pictures of the bearing, wheel, nut washers being installed...both outside and inside? Might help me visualize a little better...This was made in 1935-36...can't be that complicated can it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted November 16, 2016 Author Report Share Posted November 16, 2016 (edited) Grandpadave, Ok, took some photos today. Here they are. This is the axle assembly on top and the bicycle bearings below. Notice the "swedge" type shoulder on the axel and the swedge type fitting that slides on the axel. Here is the outer bearing on the axel assemble. Note the "cup" arrangement the bearing sits in. The swedge then presses against the bearings. There is a caution in the owner manual to use caution not to over tighten the nut that puts tension on the wheel/bearing assemble. It should only be tightened enough to prevent side to side slip. I think what happened is it was over tightened and the wheel was torqued off the race as a result. Here's the swedge assemble inserted into the bearing. Note the dust cover on top of the bearing. This fits on the wheel and over the bearing. Hope this helps you vision how things go together. Edited November 16, 2016 by John Wright Spelling correction Miataguy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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